Harleys ? !

[Rain Rider 1]

http://harleys-suck.redztread.com/whs.html

[sportbikecalgary]

Harleys.... As much as 'we' don't like them, there's no way you'll convince the numbers of unwashed masses that show up at the chrome-heaven showrooms that there's anything better. Logic doesn't penetrate their dew rags. They are buying a lifestyle. Just like Beemer riders, Wingnuts, Ducasti and scooter-heads. With the simple transaction of plunking down some cash they are automatically part of a fraternity.

For lots of HD folks, this is exactly what they want. They could care less about 1/4 mile times or horsepower to weight ratios. They have their 'merican made motorcycle to cruise around with and that's fine by them. They're not out to set speed records or lap times... they're out to have fun with friends... or maybe find some friends. For lots of them, they've been dreaming about owning an HD for years and have blinkers on when other brands enter the picture.

As far as anti-Harley websites, I like this one (http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/main.htm). It's been around for a few years.

[Uwe W.]

Imagine hating something so much that you would put time and effort into building a website extolling that hate. Sorry, I don't get it. Those websites say a lot more about the people that operate them, than those they're supposed to be ridiculing. Anyone that angry about something so unimportant has some serious issues.

Thankfully we live in a time and place that allows us to decide what kind of bike we want ride, regardless if it's a cruiser, a sport bike or a dirt bike. The only issue of importance is that the motorcycle gives the person riding it some measure of enjoyment in their life.

Selecting a motorcycle genre or manufacturer isn't about right or wrong. It's a subjective decision that reflects an individual's interests. Why would anyone want to go out of their way to shit on that?

I'll go on the record as saying that I love Harleys, or more accurately, certain Harleys. Then again, I can't think of one manufacturer that doesn't make at least one model that I wouldn't like to own. And to the people responsible for those websites I have one simple message: why not do something productive with your life?

[metalredneck]

again, if i may, i wouldn't bang yer ol' lady,but i'm glad you like her. i had a hog for 2 seasons. never payed so much to go so slow in all my life. however, if you wanna own more than the t-shirt & belt-buckle-roachclip, buy the mid-life crisis-glide, and join the rest of the (slowly) moving pylons i see on any given sunday being PASSED by motor-homes.

just never, EVER call me bro. mr

[RickO]

I have tried out a few Harley's, mostly at demo rides. I remember having a great time at Welland County Motorcycle Club many years ago when a truckload of bikes was brought up from Milwaukee and you just signed one out and went for a ride on a nice loop that was laid out on the roads near the clubhouse. I didn't enjoy all of the bikes I tried, but some surprised me.

I have never owned a Harley but a buddy bought one not long after our demo ride adventure and he still has it: a 1989 FLHS.

My take on Harley's is that they cost more than I am willing to pay and carry with them a certain membership thing that I also do not want to buy into. I'm not a joiner. I do know a few people that ride Harley's and are not religious about it. That is, they don't care what I ride and don't try to convert me.

What pisses me off (and I think induces hate in some) are those annoying zealots who diss anything that isn't H-D and call your ancestry, patriotism and manhood into question if you ride anything else. Ironically, many are of the "I'd rather walk than ride anything but a Harley" variety that don't even own a bike.

[Rain Rider 1]

I posted the link to the Harley bashing to get some dialog going.

I have been riding motorcycles since the age of 7.
Started on mini trails and worked up through the ranks to some of the the largest, most powerful bikes made.

Included in my experience are several long rides on Harley motorcycles. However, I have not owned a Harley.

I like the look and the sound of a customized Harley, and I understand why Harley people like them.

What bugs me is the people that only buy Harley and don't know anything about any other motorcycle. There are Harleys and then there is the rest of the world of motorcycling.

Mind you, any single brand enthusiast is missing out never trying something else. This also extends to the genre of motorcycle too. If you have only owned a poor handling cruiser, you don't know how good a motorcycle can go around corners. If you only own sportbikes and go for short rides, you haven't experienced the comfort of a Gold Wing or a V strom. If you only ride big tour glides, you can't imagine how flickable a 600 sport bike is.

I understand that we can't ride every bike out there, but in my 44 years of riding experience, the one brand that irks me with its inept controls, lame handling, gutless engines and wooden brakes are Harleys.

[sportbikecalgary]

Imagine hating something so much that you would put time and effort into building a website extolling that hate. Sorry, I don't get it. Those websites say a lot more about the people that operate them, than those they're supposed to be ridiculing. Anyone that angry about something so unimportant has some serious issues.


Yep I thought this might happen. I don't feel good about countering the new moderator, but, I suspect you hopped onto the website saw the anti-Harley stuff and fixed an opinion on what you were going to read. :rolleyes: The American Angst (http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/main.htm) site is more of a smack down to those that profess that Harley is the best motorcycle period. The owner takes the skewed facts (like Harley started Honda or Harley outsells all the Japanese manufacturer 3-1) and re-educates the e-mail author.

It started with a simple e-mail stating that Harley was corrupting the american way of life by stiffling development and becoming a marketing machine rather than an innovative motorcycle manufacturer. The responses to this email created the website. He gets called all the usual things ( anti-american, unpatriotic, etc) for not desiring a Harley and riding a 600RR instead. His responses take no prisoners and while being a bit on the long side, they make sure his point is driven home. Which is: While all the other motorcycle manufacturers have relied on product improvement and marketplace competitiveness to evolve their product, Harley has been stagnent and complacent (in his view, this is anti-american) in marketing old designs to ignorant masses under the guise of being pro-american.

He figures the peer pressure to conform to the Harley way of life is anti-american where as each person is allowed to make up his or her own mind and ride whatever they choose to ride. So it's not really anti-Harley as the first glance would show. It's pro-informed-choice. It makes for interesting reading if you have the time to go through it.

[Uwe W.]

Yep I thought this might happen. I don't feel good about countering the new moderator, but, I suspect you hopped onto the website saw the anti-Harley stuff and fixed an opinion on what you were going to read.

Just hang on a minute there. I'm actually familiar with both sites, and have spent some time reading them over prior to this thread. As a rule I don't form opinions before trying something out, whether it be a motorcycle or a website. The same probably can't be said for many of the members in the anti-Harley club; I'd like to know how many of them had actually ridden a Harley before they started bashing them.

Perhaps I should have taken the time to be more specific with the comments in my previous post. They were more in reply to the website that started this thread than the American Angst link you posted. None the less, I still don't agree with that author either; to claim Harley stiffles development and places marketing above innovation is in my opinion a ridiculous viewpoint.

Just because a manufacturer doesn't redesign their motorcycles at the frantic pace of a Japanese sport bike, it doesn't mean they're stagnant. Do styling changes not constitute development? And what about consistancy. Not everyone wants something new everytime they walk into a showroom - some people actually like to know what they'll see before they walk through the door. Tradition and predictability might be the elements floating the other guy's boat.

Harley-Davidson is a company, and like most companies it exists to make a profit. If Harley's profit comes off the back of those that place a higher value on a motorcycle's aesthetics than its performance, who cares?

The entire argument makes me laugh. On the flip side, Harley actually introduces new models every year. They took a big risk when they came out with the V-Rod and put the Harley name on it (the motor was originally being developed for Buell). It's true that they can't claim every new model is built differently from the ground up, but that doesn't mean their entire R&D program should be considered a joke.

Sorry, but I'm just a little tired of Harley bashing. Those that sit on either extreme of this debate share the same level of ignorance, and neither is better than the other. Like I wrote earlier: if you don't like them you don't have to buy them, but just because your neighbour does, you don't have to rain on the guy's parade. Everyone should talk with their wallets and let the market decide what sticks around or fades away.

[mrspock]

I read over and over again that many sport bike riders are concerned about wight , horse power , 1/4 mile time and so forth . However , most of these very same riders have not got the skills to put these powers to use , nor can they indeed be put to use legaly on our roads . I wonder as well how many would really notice the difference of 4 lbs off thier bikes anyway .

I say this not poke fun at sport bike riders , but rather to support the idea that we all buy into a lifestyle , or presumed lifestle just by the type of bike we buy , regardless of whether or not we actually have the skills to use said machine properly .

While I am not a fan of hawgs myself , I see it this way , we are ALL riding on two wheels ( oooops , I just one wheel back there .... sorry , counldnt resit that ) ánd we all want to enjoy some part of motahsickle thaynge for whatever reason. Remember though , hawg riders also buy pick me up trucks and trailers , all of which help out economy greatly


spock

[TimP]

I agree with those who find these marque-based rants pointless, yet here I am spending time responding...

As my (and likely your) mother used to say "why can't we all just get along?"

And so what if that old joke about the perfect motorcycle garage has, among all the other purposeful bikes, a Harley "for going for ice cream"? What's wrong with a nice ride for ice cream? Next thing you know, lactose intolerant scribes will be complaining about the Harley / Dairy Queen conspiracy (which, we all know, was discredited years ago).

Besides, EVERYONE knows that if you're not riding a BMW, you're shit.

[mrspock]

"... Next thing you know, lactose intolerant scribes will be complaining about the Harley / Dairy Queen conspiracy (which, we all know, was discredited years ago). ... "

Oh really ? I recently read that this conspiracy was part of the nixon era and was started at about the same time as the fist moon landing was faked while CIA agents were assassination presidents in the middle east to get the oil from the dudes we were told crashed a plane into the pentagon but no one ever saw it . I think this is the perfect case for agent Mudler and Scully

Oh yes , it is a well documented fact that BMW owners are not as good as ST riders . I know , I did the research myself an d arrived at this conclusion after almost ten minutes of research .


spock

[John]

I am not so sure of that.

They do stick with their concept (with the obvious exception of V-Rods & Buell) but how long was it that Yamaha stuck with the V-Max? Twenty-five years or something like it? Pretty close if I'm wrong... How many years has Honda been selling a Goldwing? I know that they have improved that machine (according to Honda & it's target demographic) steadily since the mid-seventies introduction but it's still doing what it always did - albeit somewhat better. See my point? HD is considered to be perfection by many motorcyclists. Who the fuck am I to tell them ANY differently? "Arrogant", that's who. I really like that new sporty-ish Dyna model (Fat Bob? methinks) and would love to try one out. I think the Nightster looks cool (buddy of mine back in Newfoundland has one and loves it).

What I cannot abide is some idiot telling me that my taste is somehow 'wrong'. I also hate it when someone piously tells me that I am missing out on some greater aspect of life because I have not partaken in the joys of "X":mad:. My buddy has a Buell & an old Shovelhead. On a long run he MORE than appreciates a turn running my FJR. He calls it a rocket-ship, comfortable, good-handling, etc. He appreciates what it does & how it does it. He just likes HD stuff MUCH more as he appreciates their style. I do not have anything to prove to the guy - he likes what he likes. More's the point: why the fuck would I?

I like Guzzis, Ducatis, Yamahas (a lot), Suzukis, Triumphs (a lot), HD's, MV-Augustas, KTM's (a lot), Beemers, etc., etc. But some of their owners REALLY annoy the shit outta me. We can talk about how some (even a lot) of HD owners ignorantly proclaim that their machines represent the highest expression of the bike-building industry. [B]That's[B] stupid. But when some guys says that HE FEELS that the HD machine is the best out there for him, then that is an invitation to further discussion NOT insults.

I'm kinda surprised at myself here - I usually avoid HD or sportbike-bashing threads like the plague...:rolleyes:

John.

[Uwe W.]

Besides, EVERYONE knows that if you're not riding a BMW, you're shit.

Sez the man with a Honda for an avatar. :D


John said: He just likes HD stuff MUCH more as he appreciates their style. I do not have anything to prove to the guy - he likes what he likes. More's the point: why the fuck would I?


Thanks.

Great group of guys here I must say.

[TimP]

it is a well documented fact that BMW owners are not as good as ST riders . I know , I did the research myself an d arrived at this conclusion after almost ten minutes of research .

spock

Would that, perchance, have been after ten minutes of BMW R1200 ST riding???

[TimP]

Sez the man with a Honda for an avatar. :D



Thanks.

Great group of guys here I must say.

I'll take that as a compliment.

Listen to my late Mum, and try to get along.

The "Honda" as you call it (which Slo and Ivor and I prefer to refer to as the "VTR" or the "Firestorm" - apparently one of THE MOST POPULAR BIKES ON THIS SITE if owner preference - and we're not stupid - matters), is a suitably aggressive symbol for bikerdom (two wheels, 600cc size with 72 ft.lbs of torque, what's not to like?), so I chose it for my avatar. It makes me laugh even after nine riding seasons, and it's paid for. Sue me.

My K1200 "LT" (which stands for "light truck") is an excessive giggle I happened to luck into several years ago and which I will likely never be able to replace, but which I thoroughly enjoy on my boring jaunts down the 401 to my sweetie. Again, sue me.

As for Harleys, they're fine, they're fun, I guess. To each his own. But after canceling my order and accepting the return of my deposit for the 100th. anniversary Springer Softtail (is that one "t" or two?) after I noticed their production boost from 89,000 units to approx. 240,000 units (which signaled the immediate loss of both caché and resale profitability), I began to ask myself:

Who really cares? Just go for a ride and have a life. After all, it's just a motorcycle. 'nuff said?

[sportbikecalgary]

After one of my long time (25+ years) riding buds annouced he was going to buy a Harley last year it shook my belief system to the core. I had to go and take an unbiased look at why he would abandon Japanese sport for what I consider sub-standard design and manufacturing. After several months of reading reviews, I had to accept the fact that Harley builds an acceptable bike nowdays.

However, they still build underpowered, ill handling, overweight motorcycles marketed at an aging boomer class looking to capture a part of their youth in the motorycle they choose to ride. Unless Harley can learn to compete with the Japanese (and Italians, Koreans and Austrians!) they are destined to be a low-volume manufacturer of niche curiosities. They are masters of marketing a name and fantasy lifestyle to those that are willing to count themselves among the ignorant. Will the Buell 1125 be a step in the right direction? I doubt they'll be accepted among the brotherhood as a 'real Harley.'

So... Harley bashing.. no. there's no need to waste time preaching to the converted and pissing off the loyal. If I had a handy deity I would pray to him (or her) a bunch of thanks for allowing the grey matter between my ears the ability to distinguish between hype and fact. I can appreciate why my friends wants a Harley. There no logical reason for it. But since when has logic had anything to do with motorcycles. We'll still ride together, I'll wait for him at critical intersections.

[Malks]

I have never owned or even had a ride on a Harley and, therefore, have no first hand knowledge of the power, handling or braking issues reported by many of the posters here. One of the main reasons I have never really considered a Harley is their higher cost. Even a used one is out of the question, so there was no reason to look any further.

I have no real dislike for Harleys and there have been a few models that have caught my attention over the years. I liked the look of the blacked-out Night Train when it came out and of course the V-Rod could find a place in my garage if I could find that much money just lying around with nothing else to do.

The only thing that gets me is the attitude of many Harley riders. Quite a few seem to have this better than everyone else air about them and will not acknowledge your presence if you are riding something other than a Harley. Well I guess the higher cost of admission to the "Harley Club" makes them feel this way.

This summer I will have to get out to a demo ride just to see for myself what they are really like.

[metalredneck]

a while back, i read an interview with sonny barger, founder of hell's angels, who was hopping mad that milwaukee had franchised & sold their badass image as a marketing tool, when they first stopped leaking oil, and focused on "lifestyle". he said at the time, that if he didn't own a harley dealership, he would be riding a goldwing. he mulled about a law-suit, but realised h/d had three times as many lawyers as engineers, and it would be hopeless.

ride what ya want to, 'cause someone else isn't going to get it anyhow.

amazing how people get revved up about s.f.a.:rolleyes:

[New & reborn Priest]

'Nice to read a really lively argument from a bunch of thinking people. That's what makes this forum different.

A couple of posters said it, and I reiterate: a Harley is only a motorcycle, sometimes disappointingly primitive. Brain-dead Harley moonies wearing a thousand dollars worth of leather and Harley insignia make you want to look the other way.

I have a brother-in-law. He lives - thank god - in Ontario. Rick is a construction foreman who smokes a deck a day and routinely drinks a dozen beers after work. (When he has done that he breaks out from monosylables into actual conversation.) Rick bought himself a Harley a couple of years ago but switched quickly from an 883 to a 1200 because the guys he hung out with said the 'small bike' was only for ladies.

I don't know what this all says, but I think of Rick once in a while and his upcoming early death, and I shudder...

[TimP]

Rick bought himself a Harley a couple of years ago but switched quickly from an 883 to a 1200 because the guys he hung out with said the 'small bike' was only for ladies.

I don't know what this all says, but I think of Rick once in a while and his upcoming early death, and I shudder...

Holy Crap! I'm confused!

Do you mean they kill you if you're male and not on an EVO? Or that Ontario is hazardous to your health? Or you've got one mean sister?

[mrspock]

" ... Ontario is hazardous to your health ... "

Ain't that the truth :-) If the brain dear cagers on Bathurst street don't kill ya , the lawyers you hire to settle , will , provided they can get to the courthouse avlive themselves :-) Then you have the insurance companies making you wish you got killed rather then have to deal with the red tape they invent as they go along .

Oh ya , I think once either heard or read , sorry , forget which just now , that her would rather die an ST1100 than a hawg which was nothing more than driveway jewelery , or words to that effect ( but please don't quote me , I live in Ontario and the price of dictionaries and decent memory is enough to kill ya here )


spock

[Sidecar Bob]

HARLEY TO ABANDON MAKING MOTORCYCLES
Due to a higher volume of sales of clothing, accessories, and other Harley paraphernalia, and coupled with tight financial times that put a further squeeze on overpriced, underperforming machinery, Harley Davidson has partnered with Proptronics to produce a specialty motorcycle called "Stylin' Iron."

Proptronics is the company famous making fake appliances that are used in model homes for purposes of show only. In a brilliant management decision, Harley Davidson decided to face the fact that the only reason most people buy their equipment is indeed as a fashion accessory. By building a prop motorcycle, costs can be dramatically cut.

The new Stylin' Iron will have the look and feel of a real Harley motorcycle and even comes equipped with a recorded potato-potato synthesizer, smoky air pump to simulate exhaust, and even an adjustable rate oil leak. The bike is priced at under $1,200 and is available immediately.

Sales are expected to soar as the new model will allow Harley enthusiasts to spend more money on leather, hats, sunglasses and jewelry due to no longer having to be concerned about keeping the machinery in actual running and riding condition.

The expected surge in accessory sales has prompted the Milwaukee company to begin talks with the American clothing designer K Mart to help supply genuine Harley Davidson clothing and K-Mart will feature the new Stylin' Irons in their sporting goods department.

A spokesman for Harley Davidson commented "We expect Stylin' Iron to be a huge success and relieve the company of having to deal with complaints from the minority of customers who understand motorcycling, and can turn full time attention to the fashion conscious customers who buy our product to function equally as well as the rest of the Harley Davidson line of motorcycles, in a fashion sense. Some of our engineers who have tested the new machine claim it actually performs just as well on the road also, given a suitable downhill grade and tailwind."

[Sidecar Bob]

When I got my first bike in '85 there were a lot of bikers out there with the "if it isn't a Harley it isn't really a bike" attitude. That seems to have changed over the years. Most of the people with that attitude now have never had a bike and a lot of them have never even been on one. They don't matter.

Most of the Harley guys I meet these days are genuinely interested in my machine, whether I'm on the gOLDwing or the sidecar outfit. They all seem to either have had one of their own at some time or knew someone who had one and they usually make some comment like "they are a pretty good bike" or "I always liked those".
They don't even get too upset when they start telling me what they have done to improve their Harleys and I start to chuckle.

Harley performance? See my post above. When my 650 (transverse V-twin) was made in '84 it produced more horsepower than a 1340cc HD big twin.
Torque? Try a Valkyrie - one reviewer was so amazed by the Valk's torque that he decided to see what would happen if he left it in high gear. He drove it from Honda Canada to his home near Belleville (if I remember correctly), including stops, without touching the gearshift. Try that on a Harley...

I have even known a few Harleys that I would not have kicked out of my garage. I wouldn't want one as my only bike, but if I could have a dozen....

It seems to me, though, that many the sport bike crowd have adopted a "if it isn't a sport bike it isn't a real bike" attitude. I find that just as dumb as the Harley thing. Even if I had 20 bikes, I doubt if I would have a sport bike.

But that's just me, and if your bike makes you smile that makes me happy, whatever it is.

[Dirtybill]

It's simple with me. I've ridden different models of Harleys and I thought they would "GRAB" me as soon as I hopped on. I waited and waited but nothing happened.

Then I took a Guzzi out and the "GRAB" happened. I can't explain it but I was grining from ear to ear when I got off the Guzzi.

I would like to get a ride on the new Buell though. Actually the old Buells weren't too bad but they just ran out of steam very early on. I imagine a pipe and some carb work would make a big difference on them and the Harley line.

[Uwe W.]

However, they still build underpowered, ill handling, overweight motorcycles marketed at an aging boomer class looking to capture a part of their youth in the motorycle they choose to ride.

Underpowered?:
2004 HD Fat Boy 13.51 sec. @ 97.91 mph (1/4 mile - same as an SV650)
FERRARI F355 13.2 sec @ 112.2 mph (1/4 mile)

Is the SV650 underpowered too then? Any bike that can do a quarter mile in close to the same time as a Ferrari isn't underpowered (I've never owned a four wheeler that went that fast). The only performance comparison a Harley would pale in is with a sport bike, but who cares; people that buy cruisers want to cruise, not out drag the guy in the next lane.

Ill-handling?:
Again, that's a relative criticism. If you travel at legal speeds you aren't going to have handling issues on a Harley. I haven't noticed a disproportionate amount of Harleys crashing because they handled poorly. Again, if you try to ride it like a sport bike there'll be problems, but who cares; people that buy cruisers want to cruise, not drag their knees down a curving road.

Overweight?:
2004 HD Fat Boy = 706 lbs. WET
2004 Honda Gold Wing = 898 lbs. WET
2006 Triumph Rocket 3 = 785 lbs. WET

Sure some bikes weigh more than others. There are a lot of overweight people too. What's the point being made here? Next to a 250cc 2-stroke MX bike, your bike is overweight too.

Boomers?:
That comment holds true for ANY make of motorcycle. There are a lot of mid-life crisis guys on sport bikes, and BMW GSs too. Start asking guys on Harleys how long they've been riding and you'll find the average isn't any different than those from other categories of bikes.


Unless Harley can learn to compete with the Japanese (and Italians, Koreans and Austrians!) they are destined to be a low-volume manufacturer of niche curiosities.

Low-volume?:
Sales stats for 2006 in the US
MOTORCYCLE MARKET SHARE
Source: Powersports Business and industry sources.
Triumph 1%
Honda 27%
Harley-Davidson 27%
Yamaha 17%
Suzuki 13%
Kawasaki 10%
KTM 2%
BMW 1%
Ducati 1%
Polaris 1%

In 2006 HD sold 361,000 motorcycles internationally, compare that to BMW that broke the 100,000 mark for the first time in its history. Sales numbers for the Japanese are more difficult to extract because of the quantity of small displacement motorcycles they manufacture. Honda is the world's largest moto manufacture, but I'd guess HD sales aren't far off the pace of say Suzuki or Kawasaki. Oh, but you also mentioned Austrians (KTM has yet to sell 100k a year) and Italians (Ducati 39,500 in 2007) whose total sales are a fraction of HD's "niche curiosity" sales.


They are masters of marketing a name and fantasy lifestyle to those that are willing to count themselves among the ignorant.

I suppose you don't own any product other than the motorcycle itself with a manufacturer's logo on it? You think HD are the only ones that are trying to make a buck off their brand name? Trust me, EVERY other manufacturer and all their shareholders envy HD's success in that venture.

Check out the Triumph, Ducati or KTM websites and tell me they aren't trying to mine the same "lifestyle" goldmine.

Your turn SBC... :D

[TimP]

Harleys are to bikes what the Ford F150 is to cars: The top seller many of us just can't see ourselves owning. Doesn't make either side of the argument right or wrong, it's just a clear indication that needs and wants cover a broad range, and manufacturers cater to various sectors within that range.

Of course, if you happen to own both a Harley and an F150, you can load one into the other when it breaks and still get home.

[Sidecar Bob]

While I agree with most of what Uwe says, one thing needs to be clarified:


Overweight?:
2004 HD Fat Boy = 706 lbs. WET
2004 Honda Gold Wing = 898 lbs. WET
2006 Triumph Rocket 3 = 785 lbs. WET
I tried to find a claimed horsepower for the 2004 Fat Boy, but couldn't find it anywhere. I did find a page that said that the 1450 twin of 2006 was 65Hp.
That would be 0.092 HP/Lb

2004 GoldWing: 118 HP.
That would be 0.131 HP/Lb.

2004 Rocket III: 140 Hp.
That would be 0.178 HP/Lb.

As a point of reference:
1984 Honda CX650E 65 HP, 518 Lb., .125 HP/LB

Oh, and before anyone says anything about torque,
Fat Boy 85 Ft.Lb.
GoldWing 125 Ft.Lb.
Rocket 147,5 Ft.Lb.

It would seem that, compared to these bikes, the Fat Boy is either underpowered or overweight. Or both.

The resale prices of Harleys always amaze me. Note that I don't use the word "value" - an article's value is based on it's usefulness and a 15 year old Harley is not any more useful than a 15 year old Honda (or Yamaha or Kawasaki &c) of similar specification and in similar condition. Especially when you see the number of 2-4 year old Harleys on the market.
I guess P.T.Barnum was right - there is one born every minute.

Tim:
How do you load an F-150 into a Harley?

Oh... I guess it only works one way.

What do you do when your Ford breaks down while Hauling your Harley home?

[Uwe W.]

While I agree with most of what Uwe says, one thing needs to be clarified: It would seem that, compared to these bikes, the Fat Boy is either underpowered or overweight. Or both.

If we're going to look at the issue of weight as a performance factor, then all of those bikes are overweight.

SBC didn't specify what his beef with the weight of a Harley was. He could have been discussing moving the thing around a garage or picking it up after a spill. Those would be legitimate concerns in the real world. However, if he was mentioning it as a hindrance to performance, then he's applying a standard that not every rider considers to be of value.

My argument is based on the perspective of someone interested in cruisers. If their motorcycle (in this case a Harley) can be ridden safely in everyday traffic, then its weight (or HP/lb) is irrelevant. Why do sport riders so often view all motorcycles from a performance perspective. It lacks imagination. The imagination it takes to see a motorcycle with the eyes of someone who places form over function.


Tim: How do you load an F-150 into a Harley? Oh... I guess it only works one way. What do you do when your Ford breaks down while Hauling your Harley home?[/

OK, now you two guys are just getting plain ol' mean. I've got an F150; it has never broken down and it's been cheaper to maintain over the past 4 years than my wife's Toyota. :rolleyes:

[Ivor biggin]

Uwe is right, as always, but please Uwe cut us some slack here. Harley bashing has been a regular forum topic since day one and not once have I seen a response from a Harley rider. In this politicaly correct world it`s nice to dump on something and Harleys are an easy target.
Now my Harley story.
Last summer I was driving west on HW17 toward S.S.M., doing about a buck twenty, when this bike came up behind me and to my supprise it turned out to be a Harley. He passed me without a second look and was gone. He had some sort of insignia on his vest that started with an H but it wasn`t Harley Owners Group and then in my mirror I saw the rest of his riding buddies. They came up just as fast, maybe twenty of them riding in pairs about two bike lengths apart, and passed me with same determination that the leader had shown. The noise, as the freight train passed, was deafening so I rolled down my window to get the full effect. Intimidating? Perhaps to some. Impressive? No doubt. Next thing to pass me was four OPP cruisers that were following at a safe distance. My point is, and it may be a bit obscure, is that if these wanabes would like to be taken seriously then instead of riding at a snails pace they should up the ante.

IB.

[Uwe W.]

Harley bashing has been a regular forum topic since day one and not once have I seen a response from a Harley rider. In this politicaly correct world it`s nice to dump on something and Harleys are an easy target.

Here and every other motorcycle forum (with the exception of the HOGS-R-US and American Ironsides forums). Don't think I'm taking this so seriously that I don't laugh at jokes made at the expense Willy and the boyz down south. I also don't think guys like Neil (SBC) are taking my counter-points that seriously either; it's a good group of people here, but once in a while it's also fun to step in the ring and tussle a little


My point is, and it may be a bit obscure, is that if these wanabes would like to be taken seriously then instead of riding at a snails pace they should up the ante..

And now there's a place for them to do just that. Parts Canada announced a new race series last week that will run along side the Canadian Superbike Championship. Called the Hogs Haulin' Bacon Series, only motorpickles with the nomenclature of bagger will be allowed to enter.

There will be a maximum power restriction of 70 hp, and minimum really wet weight (rider excluded) of 1000 lbs. Those interested in entering Chicken Wings, LT's (light transportships) and Trumpet 3's will need to remove a few spark plug cables and add lead plates in their panniers in order to qualify.

Optional to the lead weights, riders of non-HD gentry can opt to carry live hogs pillion - secured firmly in place with pink geee strings whilst they shout "yeee-haw" with every pass of the grandstand.

Promoter extraordinaire Colon Frasier is said to be exploring his bellybutton, and the idea of introducing the series as an AMA sponsored opening event for NIXCAR races.

While many teams have already registered, there have also been several a few early disqualifications.

Sorry, only REAL pigs qualify:
http://www.vegan911.com/mediac/400_0/media/pighog.jpg

This racer hasn't figured out yet that the hog goes on the pillion, not the tank:
http://news.com.com/i/ne/p/photo/airbag_500x333.jpg

No, no, no. This is all wrong. No hog holders, underweight bikes without panniers and the Hog has to still be breathing...
http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-15458567.jpg?size=572&uid={3bda0289-b997-4013-856c-8ed6edc1c951}

[TimP]

What do you do when your Ford breaks down while Hauling your Harley home?

Simple, you call these guys:

http://www.comingthrough.se/main.php?lang=UK&page=pro

You meet the nicest people on a Honda!

[TimP]

Uwe, I was prepping my LT for the race series you mentioned, and I have a problem. Perhaps some technical advice would help.

My LT claims 100 hp. from its 4-banger, so I can't detune to the 70 hp limit with only one plug pull, and two would result in a 20 hp disadvantage, and that's unacceptable.

So, I've been working on an innovative intake restriction scenario with impressive results. The bike as shown was recently dyno'ed at 69.99 hp, and, since all four cylinders are still functional, it hauls a competitive slab of bacon. I'm frankly totally stoked about the potential for real victory this season.

There's just one problem. My HD competitors are crying foul and claim I'm infringing on their brand. They've filed suit for trademark violation and are insisting I add a third orifice, possibly a fourth, which would make the bike too powerful for the class. Rather than add additional orifices, I'm contemplating closing one of the two original ones.

So, here's the technical question:

Do you think a BMW can still beat a Harley with something stuffed up its second hole? Please help, the season's about to begin...

[Uwe W.]

The bike as shown was recently dyno'ed at 69.99 hp, and, since all four cylinders are still functional, it hauls a competitive slab of bacon. I'm frankly totally stoked about the potential for real victory this season.

I heard similar words from you regarding the MotoGP pool, and look where that got you. :D


Do you think a BMW can still beat a Harley with something stuffed up its second hole?

That depends Tim on which side of the bike you were standing on. The BMW shop manual clearly labels these orifices; I suggest you reference them and then tell me whether you're talking about your A hole or your B hole.


In other news, word of this thread has made it back to the HD R&D Dept., and after lengthy consultations with SportBikeCalgary, two new models that will address concerns with weight, handling and performance are due to be built. The names of these models has yet to be determined, but we did manage to obtain a spy shot of the new lightweight HOGS being tested on public roads.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r46/Motorbiker_photos/NewsPics2/Weru-ad.jpg

[mrspock]

Uwe , great spy shots but I am very concerned that these bikes may not haqve the corner clearance or suspension travel needed to navigate our public roads , especialy here in Toronto . I am also wondering what if any new clothing line will come with these new models . I mention this because I suspect that there may be a marked lack of available lighting on these new light weight bikes . So , while yes , I do have some skills in designing at least some form of stylizied system of conspicuity (SP) i think that others hee are far more skilled than I to accomplish this very im portant task .

HOWEVER , i am greatly disappointed that these new lightweight bikes will force the rider into a riding position that will hide thier safety tatoos . Clearly , this design needs to be re thunked .

Lastly , once again on the subject of ground clearance , and suspension travel . do you know off hand if the discraded parts that will be inevidable as will all members of this brand be small enough to make navigation around fallen parts safe ? And , is there any information as yet to whether oil is an option in these models or , has there been built into this new line a planned obselecense (SP) of three feet ?

i am very interest in this new model but I am afraid it may still be priced out of my league . I would very much like to know about pricing for this new model .


spock

[Rain Rider 1]

That Harley debate is really good.

Now for a little tidbit on a ride I went on yesterday.

Suited up, GPS on, tire air checked, heated vest plugged in.
Sunny +12 c day.

Venture out to nowhere in particular.
End up near Sarnia. All backroads.
Stopped at a little cafe for soup and tea.
There were three Harleys there so I thought why not stop and chat.
Walked in and ordered.
Sat by the window near the Harley boyz.
Obviously wanna be bikers. $2,000.00 outfits and EVERYTHING Harley branded.

I said hi.

No response at all. Nothing. Usually guyz like that will at least acknowledge your presence. So I pushed a little further and said nice day for a ride isn't it?
One guy grunted yup.
I waited a while and asked where they were riding from.
Guy asked me why I wanted to know.
I said I was just making conversation.
Other guy said to his bud that he can't stand jap scrap.
I kinda lost it and asked him how long he has been riding?
No answer.
Then I asked him if he has ever ridden anything other than a Harley. Answer was no and didn't ever want to.

I said that there was a whole lot more out there in the motorcycling world to consider and that they were missing the rest of motorcycling if they only rode Harley's.

They didn't like that and then got up, put on their fringes and went outside.

I watched them in the parking lot as they eyed up my bike and were laughing at it.
Now really, I admit, that a V-Strom is an ugly bike, but I can't see it when I'm riding it and it is just so damn capable!

The noise when they left was ridiculous especially when all they were doing is accelerating up to 60 kph or so.

I left shortly after and went the same direction.
There was series of long straights with some curves thrown in and I was cranking it on a bit. I came over a rise that preceded a gravel strewn curve and lo and behold one of buddies was off the road and stuck in the ditch. The three of them were trying to rock the hog out of the mud. I just drove past thinking how goofy they looked, but a bit down the road, I turned around.

I did a U turn and asked if they wanted some help.

They said no. I said are you sure? NOPE !
(just as well, I didn't want to get all muddy)

I took off down the road and noticed an OPP at an intersection. I told him that a bike was off the road and that he should check it out. He said thanks and that he would do so.

End of story.

If there is a moral to this its that regardless of brand, type or style of bike, we should all be courteous out there. You just never know when you might need help and drop your ego before you go for a ride. A fourth person would have got that thing out of the ditch.

[Uwe W.]

If there is a moral to this its that regardless of brand, type or style of bike, we should all be courteous out there. You just never know when you might need help and drop your ego before you go for a ride. A fourth person would have got that thing out of the ditch.

Great story Steve. Insecurity like that transcends brand names; I'm sure those guys would have acted the same way if they had Blackberrys and you walked in carrying a Palm Treo. It was great of you to turn around and offer help despite their attitude.

[RickO]

...Then I asked him if he has ever ridden anything other than a Harley. Answer was no and didn't ever want to...
I think Steve has distilled the whole "Harley thing" down to its essence with this story.
It isn't the bikes people dislike, it's the people riding them.

[Dirtybill]

A fourth person would have got that thing out of the ditch.

And I'll lay big money the fourth person would NOT be the Cop:D:D:D

I've got some Harley owner stories that are similar to that. On the other hand, I've met some really good folks on HDs but just about all of them are Americans. Guys who really put on big miles.

[sportbikecalgary]

so, what happens when I leave the keyboard alone for a weekend? The moderator starts picking on me! I read the long reply by Uwe last night and thought long and hard about how to bring about a witty reply to each of his points. But I won't. Maybe it's the cold meds I'm on, but I just can't raise the inspiration to belittle the HD brand that much. I do have a couple points though.

You (Uwe) compared the quarter mile times of a Fat Boy with those of a SV650 and asked if I thought the SV was underpowered. ..and yes I do think the SV is underpowered. It makes a great entry-level machine for new riders 'cause it won't get you into to too much trouble with its low hp figures and it's quick handling and adequate brakes. Compared to the Fat Boy it's a ripper.

Fat Boy (SV650)

Weight 315 kg (165kg)
Wheelbase 1,638.3 mm (1,440 mm)
Displacement 1,584 cc (647 cc)

At just shy of 700lbs I would hardly recommend the Fat Boy to an entry level rider. The wheelbase is 200mm longer making the low speed handling extra-fun. oh yeah and the SV has a 900 cc deficiency compared to the Fat Boy. They're both V-Twins... what would happen if the SV gained that 900 cc back?

During my years as a CSC instructor, I can't remember anyone wanting to weave through the pylons ontheir HDs. We had a few instructors ride up to the course on HD's (one with a FatBob with the 21" front wheel.) However, he left it parked in the shade while he demonstrated competent riding on the 125cc Hondas.

Marketing... Granted every manufacturer looks at the marketing of HD merchandise with envy 'cause it means more to the bottom line. For the record I haven't purchased own ANY manufacturer's clothing in the last 15 years. I think my last motorcycle manufacturer tee-shirt was for the '88 Katana. The local dealer tossed in a Duc shirt when I bought my ST4s and it hasn't been worn for 3 years. But I see the HD influence creeping into all my favorite bike shops. Fewer bikes on the floor and more space dedicated to clothing. The markup in clothing is a couple hundred percent so the dealers are keen on this.

Ok.. and the niche market player. I love stats. :) The stat you pulled up is nice. It shows how HD is equal to Honda in sales in the states. But then you discount any possible rebuttal with the fact that Honda makes millions of small displacement bikes, oh yeah.. and one or two automobiles and I think their personal jet is in production. ... so it's hard to get numbers right. That's the beauty of statisitics. You can bend and fold them anywhat you like.

Would you buy a personal plane built by Harley? It would be a turbo prop ('cause their focus group says the buyer like the drone sounds). It would weigh twice as much as the competitors and fly slower. But that's ok! Who needs to fly fast when slow means you can see more scenery.

But I digress. So the sales stats I pulled up are from here (http://world.honda.com/investors/quarterly/2008/2007-3rdqr.pdf). They show that in the 9 months prior to 2008, Honda sold 6.9 million motorcycles, 2.8 million automobiles and 3.9 million power products. Yes there's a lot of non-large displacement motorcycles in those stats, but is shows a company that is diverse and strong. North American sales went from 157 thousand units to 303 thousand units in 1 year. How does Harley do out of the USofA? Here's a chart with data from HD's 2006 annual report

http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/06hdeuro.gif

So... in the land of the free, it's good sales times... but outside the influences of Homeland Security, the numbers are quite a bit different.


But... now all that said. It's not so much the bike as it is the attitude that they're sold with. For may years I road a '81 900f2 and I never had any issues with any European rider giving me any sort of grief. I had plenty of opportunity to ride exotic Euro and Japanese bikes as folks swapped off with me. When it came time for me to pick up my Ducati, I swore that I'd never develope the elitest attitude one could easily pick up as an option with the purchase. I tend to lend my ride out to most competent riders and for this reason I get to ride their scoots as well. It's all about the motorcycling experience. The only grief I get on the road is from HD riders.

A final jab at the cruisr handling. While having coffee in Nelson B.C. a couple years back, I happened to find myself sitting beside the local police. I quizzed him up on his thoughts on bikers in the area and whether he targeted any specific type of bike. His response was, " Unless they're doing something stupid infront of me, I generally leave the sport bikers alone. It's the damn cruiser riders that think they can go fast that we're always picking out of the ditches."

(good thing I didn't have much to say, eh? )

[Dirtybill]

I forgot. Another reason I don't care for Harleys or crusiers in general is that for me, the riding position puts too much pressure on my lower spine. I much prefer a sportbike or sport touring, leaning forward stance. I guess too many years on sportbikes has gotten me used to this. When I had my V-Max I put flat bars on it just to lean into it more. Didn't help the handling LOL!!

[John]

"A final jab at the cruiser handling. While having coffee in Nelson B.C. a couple years back, I happened to find myself sitting beside the local police. I quizzed him up on his thoughts on bikers in the area and whether he targeted any specific type of bike. His response was, " Unless they're doing something stupid in front of me, I generally leave the sport bikers alone. It's the damn cruiser riders that think they can go fast that we're always picking out of the ditches."

I'll ditto that. Not that I haven't seen way too much stupid shit by young fellows on sport bikes (I have). It's just that invariably the guy chose a sport bike over a cruiser that is the only difference. He was still gonna end up in the damned ditch anyways... This should not be confused with what that wise Member was telling SBC - that the concern here should be with late-comers that bought large bikes as a first purchase. We all know what sort of bikes they usually are.

John.

[Uwe W.]

the concern here should be with late-comers that bought large bikes as a first purchase. We all know what sort of bikes they usually are.

Honda CBR125Rs?



eSBeeCee shed: good thing I didn't have much to say, eh?

Nah. I'm glad you stopped popping pills long enough to reply. It was a good one.

This entire argument reminds me of the NRA slogan "guns don't kill people, people kill people." At the end of the thread it always boils down to people, not bikes, and I guess that was the point I was trying to make.

By all means judge the rider; I've got no problem with that, but please don't judge a bike because of the rider.

Think I've had my say now. Harleys, Hondas, or Husabergs... it's all good.

[KZDon]

Would you buy a personal plane built by Harley? It would be a turbo prop ('cause their focus group says the buyer like the drone sounds). It would weigh twice as much as the competitors and fly slower. But that's ok! Who needs to fly fast when slow means you can see more scenery.



Turbo prop? Are you kidding? There is still plenty of historical data out there pointing to air-cooled WWI bi-plane engines as the basis for Harley (and other brand) V-Twins. The two cylinders were simply band-sawed out of aircraft rotary engines.

Not only would a Harley plaine go slow, but parts would rattle off of it as it flew and there would be no windshield. Birds would substitute for bugs in the teeth (air-kill meals in flight), and they would only be seen flying in tight formation for poker runs.

Of course the fortunes of small local airports would grow exponentially, as the planes would be brutally uncomfortable and cold, and the pilots would only fly them a little way to meet with their pilot buddies at Haugens. Chrome additions would have a major effect on takeoff and landing speed and runway length requirements.

UWE - you've really backed down on this thread. Get a backbone man. You've been slouched over that keyboard too much lately. You're right though, it's the person not the bike. My biggest problem with the Harley lifestyle is the smallness of the mind, the lack of imagination that lets a person succumb.


As for comparing Honda to Harley, or really comparing Harley to any other motorcycle manufacturer, it's not just apples to oranges, it's kumquats to oregano. They are incomparable; different species. The philosophies behind the products and the real reasons for the existence of the products are so completely different. You meet the nicest people on a Honda vs the badass Harley lifestyle. One company makes transportation, the other styles a brand.

I'm always surprised as well that companies like Kawasaki and Suzuki don't naturally come up in this type of debate. I suspect it is because they are considered small players. While that may be true in the motorcycle marketplace, Kawasaki Heavy Industries is huge - planes, trains, automobiles, shipping and mine boring equipment huge.

Alright - I should get back to these imposing piles on my desk...

[Uwe W.]

pilots would only fly them a little way to meet with their pilot buddies at Haugens.

Got food poisoning there once; I think it was the coleslaw. Not nice. And didn't see any Harleys. Just a couple of guys on sport bikes.


Alright - I should get back to these imposing piles on my desk...

Um, Don... there are creams available for that you know.

[Sidecar Bob]

There is still plenty of historical data out there pointing to air-cooled WWI bi-plane engines as the basis for Harley (and other brand) V-Twins. The two cylinders were simply band-sawed out of aircraft rotary engines.
Actually, Harley & Davidson coppied the DeDion-Bouton engine and later, when they wanted more power and didn't understand much about engine design, they simply added a cylinder.

It's a good thing someone told them that you can get more power by increasing the displacement of the cylinders or modern Harleys would probably look like this:

http://www.bikernet.com/news/images/PhotoID20276.jpg

[Uwe W.]

Actually, I prefer this layout. It makes a far more imposing image in the rear view of the car ahead of you.

http://thekneeslider.com/images/radialmotorcycle.jpg

What a work of art!
http://thekneeslider.com/images/radialbike2.jpg

[ryeguy7]

Good day everyone,

I must confess that I currently don't own a bike and haven't for years but have been looking to buy one this spring and yes a harley is on the list of potential candidates. Now of course none of the people here criticizing harleys seem to have ridden one at all or at least not one in the last few years so I won't bother discussing the new motor and transmission or new abs these are only marketing tactics anyways. And I won't bother to mention how the entire competition have tried to emulate harley's styling or the v-twin. But what really upset me when looking at the competition was the pricing. If you look at the price of a harley today compared to its japanese counterparts you will find that they are very competitively priced due to the fact that only harley and BMW have noticed the strength of the Canadian dollar. Compare the prices here to the states and you will find that a yamaha is 35% more here and the rest are at least 25% more. Harley and BMW are 10% more. I don't know about you but whatever bike I buy and ride I don't need to feel like I have been gouged just to get it out the door.

[RickO]

Good day everyone,

I must confess that I currently don't own a bike and haven't for years but have been looking to buy one this spring and yes a harley is on the list of potential candidates...
I must admit that I haven't tried the newer models. You're right about pricing. I noticed at the show last December that Harley prices seem to have come down a bit. They're still way out of my price range.

Let me just go on record by repeating that I have nothing against Harley's and if you end up buying one, I'm certain you will wave to me when we pass on the highway and won't trash whatever I happen to be riding. I feel that the "problem" a lot of riders have with Harley's involves the attitude of their owners, not the bikes themselves.

As for marketing, I researched and wrote a lot of papers on the Harley success story while attending college back in the early '90's. It's no accident that they make more from their brand than they do from motorcycle sales. The Harley comeback from near death when they were a subsidiary of AMF is the stuff of business legend. Their customer loyalty efforts are required reading for business students.

Many companies have tried to emulate H-D's success with often embarrassing results. The Indian story comes to mind, along with Henderson and Norton. Perhaps the only other resurrection of a brand that has worked is Triumph.

Happy trails, Ryeguy!

[Uwe W.]

Compare the prices here to the states and you will find that a Yamaha is 35% more here and the rest are at least 25% more. Harley and BMW are 10% more. I don't know about you but whatever bike I buy and ride I don't need to feel like I have been gouged just to get it out the door.

There are many factors that go into setting the retail price of a product in Canada. Simply using the exchange rate to compare what a bike costs here, to what it costs in the US ignores the reality of economics. Saying you're getting gouged without making a comparison of all the importing costs involved for a manufacturer between Canada and the US is rather unfair.

I'm curious to know what your reasons are for wanting a Harley. Your timing for entering this discussion couldn't have been better.

[mrspock]

Dang , i have got to get me one of those ....... ( referring to the images UWE posted ) Now , how much for a tune up and oil change please ?


spock

[Rain Rider 1]

I have ridden Harleys. Both older and the brand new ones.

I was at a demo ride last year and rode the new FLTSFATPIG AND THE FARTMUCHPIG and the FTLYSTOOL.
Not sure which one had a 6 speed, but one of them did.

One was a top model Screamin' chicken which I was told had the most hp of any hog and that I would be impressed.

I tried to go into the day with an open mind in that I really wanted to like them, but as I rode one after the other I just wanted to go home.

Lack of ground clearance, gutless motor, shaking idle, clunky transmission, chopper seating hard on tailbone, goofy high handlebars, spongy brakes, (in fact the brake lever on every bike I rode came right back into the bar)
The Screaming chicken was WAY TOO F_ _ _ IN LOUD !!!!!!

Then I rode a Buell Ullyses(sp). This is the bike I really wanted to like. Power was okay, but my Strom would walk it. Seat height too high. Nice suspension and lo and behold good brakes, because it is a Buell design. That clunky iron clashing transmission would drive me nuts!

End of rant.

[Rain Rider 1]

Forgot to mention the V Rod.

I rode a V Rod sportmodel which has more conventional pegs and a flatter bar. It had a cool little headlight fairing and a set of custom pipes. I think the suspension was upgraded too.
Once again I wanted to like the bike, expecting it to rock, but man was it disappointing! Gutless is the only word for it! Floppy handling, wooden brakes. Power better than the old 45 degree engine but it doesn't have the character of a real Harley.
Even though the Rod is a better bike than the old 45, I would buy the old 45 if I was buying a Hog. Might as well have the real deal Hog if you are going to go there.

[Rain Rider 1]

Oh and another thing.

I can't own a Harley because I have an imagination. I can just imagine what would happen if I had a beanie on and wiped out. lol

[mrspock]

I have to confess that i REALLY do like the V-ROD ... but ONLY the orange SCREAMIN' EAGLE edition . Never did ride one though but hey , i do like the looks .


spock

[ryeguy7]

There are many factors that go into setting the retail price of a product in Canada. Simply using the exchange rate to compare what a bike costs here, to what it costs in the US ignores the reality of economics. Saying you're getting gouged without making a comparison of all the importing costs involved for a manufacturer between Canada and the US is rather unfair.

I'm curious to know what your reasons are for wanting a Harley. Your timing for entering this discussion couldn't have been better.

I understand there are more factors than exchange rate when comparing prices and that is why I don't expect bikes to be cheaper here than in the states regardless of the fact the canadian dollar has been ahead of the american dollar for most of the time recently. There is the volume factor that Yamaha H.O. cites but maybe I am wrong but I doubt HD and BMW have a signifigant or any greater market share here than in the USA therefore I don't see why that should be a factor that affects the Japanese bikes more. I won't even mention Victory that only has a handfull of dealers here but seems to be able to offer their bikes at only a 10% premium. Importing costs can not be free in the USA either so the American retails have that cost included in their retails. BMW's are imported into the USA as are all the Japanese bikes. And if taxes is another factor that you are thinking of, although you and I may pay through the nose Canada's corporate tax rates have become some of the lowest in the world. And besides regardless of the factors you may want to include into the retail price if a few manufacturers can offer bikes at a 10% premium just exactly what does the extra 25% that Yamaha is charging represent. When I was speaking with the local Yamaha dealer he was very frustrated himself because he could go to the states and buy a bike at full retail and still be under his cost here. I am sorry but somone is putting several more dollars into their pocket and I for one am not going to finance it.

Why am I considering buying a Harley, primarily styling which I understand is a personal choice for everyone and one can't forget resale value. Not many toys hold their value. I just think most Japanese bikes try to copy HD and don't do a very good job. (when my sister bought her Honda shadow the dealer told her "it looks just like a fatboy") The Yamaha Raider is a copy of a Softail Custom right down to the bobtail fender but why would I pay more,yes more for the copy. Maybe if I lived in the states where it is $5000 cheaper it may have been a contender but at the 35% premium I can't help but feel I am being ripped off. And for those that will want to compare 1/4 mile times and top speeds unless you are on a track just exactly where can you make use of these without the fines and the inevitable loss of your bike and license. Most people as do I drive within 20 km/h of the speed limit and today any bike you buy is capable of that. And besides chics dig them lol.

[Dirtybill]

Barnes HD has just moved from being 15 minutes from my house to 5 minutes tops. I just may go over there today and see if and when I can take a new Buell out. I can't stand their organized demo days rides. Last time I was on a Ulyeses and the ride was so slow I managed to get in 3rd one time:mad:

[arnottski1]

There are many factors that go into setting the retail price of a product in Canada. Simply using the exchange rate to compare what a bike costs here, to what it costs in the US ignores the reality of economics. Saying you're getting gouged without making a comparison of all the importing costs involved for a manufacturer between Canada and the US is rather unfair.

I'm curious to know what your reasons are for wanting a Harley. Your timing for entering this discussion couldn't have been better.

I am curious to. I don't like Harleys one bit. I am intrigued by the new buell with the rotax engine and have always wanted to see an affordable sport bike with a V ROD engine in it. My buddy had a thunderbolt that was kind of cool as long as you didn't have to change gears or rely on it to get you home. Twice we went riding together only to have to get him a lift to the nearest dealer to repair his bike.
I rented a Fat Boy in Hawaii (sp)? to see what I was missing and found that I was missing nothing.I think generally that Harley riders are conformist in a very strange way and really feel that Harley has cornered themselves into these obsolete behemoths and now wish they could get more creative but are stuck with there own myth.

[ryeguy7]

I think generally that Harley riders are conformist in a very strange way and really feel that Harley has cornered themselves into these obsolete behemoths and now wish they could get more creative but are stuck with there own myth.

Maybe before you say that you should comment on the creativity Honda has shown over the last 20 years....1988 - - -2008 :)

http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i16/03/k/000/79/99/4d71_20.JPG?set_id=1C4000

http://www.psndealer.com/dealersite/images/NewVehicles/NV53895_1.jpg

[KZDon]

In some ways that's a fair comment, but Honda's relatively conservative approach to the Goldwing has a lot to do with the legions of wing riders. In contrast to a Harley, it's modern, powerful, technologically advanced, liquid smooth, and Lazyboy comfortable.

[ryeguy7]

In some ways that's a fair comment, but Honda's relatively conservative approach to the Goldwing has a lot to do with the legions of wing riders.

Yes and I guess Harley's dedication to tradition and the many more legions of HD riders has nothing to do with their conservative approach. Why is it excusable for Honda but such a crime for HD. Lets just face it every brand has a legion of followers and it is a personal choice for the rider. Myself if I wanted to be in a competely kushy enviroment I would just drive a car. Part of the allure of a Harley is the wind in your face, the rumble in your ear and yes a little bad boy image. Each individual looks for something different from his/her bike that is why there is not just one bike for sale. We might as well have a discussion about blondes and brunettes because everyone knows that blondes are better. :)

[sportbikecalgary]

Hey Ryeguy, welcome to the forum.



Why am I considering buying a Harley, primarily styling which I understand is a personal choice for everyone and one can't forget resale value.
Not many toys hold their value.

This might be a good myth for the teams of researchers at Cycle Canada to check out. To me, the HD resale value reflected the inflated price one initally pays and just how much of a beating the owner was going to take when it comes time to sell. It's a given among the sport bike world that aftermarket goodies (unless they're full-on race parts) don't add that much to the resale price. Now, you average HD owner is going to add a bunch of chrome, maybe a new seat, potentially a piston kit, air box, etc... to the initial purchase. So one has to wonder how that reflects in the resale value.

Personally, I've never got what I initally wanted for a bike I was selling. I've been through about a dozen of them and each one was modded up for it's era. When I purchased my ST4s-ABS I figured the resale would be better, but, I find the depreciation comperable to the Japanese bikes. So... to say HD's hold their value... I'd like to see some hard data on that.



And for those that will want to compare 1/4 mile times and top speeds unless you are on a track just exactly where can you make use of these without the fines and the inevitable loss of your bike and license. Most people as do I drive within 20 km/h of the speed limit and today any bike you buy is capable of that.

I make use of my horsepower every time I ride. ..and before you peg me as a semi-squid: my friends bug me about being Joe-Safety everytime we ride. ATGATT has been a way of life for 30+ riding years. The ability to get the hell out of the way is a fantastic way to stay safe. So is the ability to stop in a incredibly short distance. The same goes for passing a line of cars. Would you rather pass 5 cars in a row in a KIA RIO econobox or a Dodge Viper? Naturally the Viper as it would make short work out of passing and let you get back into your lane and resume your normal speed. Would you rather accelerate a 70hp 700lb bike or a 70 hp 400lb bike? For the record... my low cruising speed is 20kph over... a very safe speed to ride at. So performance is important and not to be dismissed by manufacturers sales reps as not needed in todays overly enforced environment. I think that with all the loonies on the road now days, performance is more important than ever.


And besides chics dig them lol.

DING! We have a winner! But if you need a motorcycle to help you get the chicks, winter is going to seem long and cold.

Damn, I thought I was done with this thread.
Sometimes I just can't shut up.:rolleyes:

[sportbikecalgary]

Each individual looks for something different from his/her bike that is why there is not just one bike for sale.

Agreed. However it's the store bought attitude that comes with many (not necessarily you) HD owners that tends to piss off other riders. The HD brand has only inthe last decade brought their engineering and manufacturing up to world class standards. To me, the bad boy image is a thin facade to disguise the insecurities of having a sub-standard bike when compared to the other major manufacturers. Most of us have ridden bikes weighed down with tool kits to repair anything that broke on the trip, but I didn't develop an attitude because of it. If I'm broken by the side of the road and someone comes by to help I'll accept his or her help in second. But, if I was stranded with an old design bike and someone cruised up on some super-sport something and offered help I can see why you'd brush them off to save face. However, only a fool would reject potential assitance based on what kind of bike the person rode up on.


We might as well have a discussion about blondes and brunettes because everyone knows that blondes are better. :)

C'mon.. no mention of red heads? The PB (Pro-Blonde) prejudice is showning already!! :p (hahahahahaha)

ok.. I'm going away now.. Flames are about to start the playoffs. No, I'm not taking bets.

[ryeguy7]

The HD brand has only inthe last decade brought their engineering and manufacturing up to world class standards. To me, the bad boy image is a thin facade to disguise the insecurities of having a sub-standard bike when compared to the other major manufacturers.


C'mon.. no mention of red heads? The PB (Pro-Blonde) prejudice is showning already!! :p (hahahahahaha)



LOL you know this thread has been more fun than you can have on a rainy spring day. Now you have me confused because I am not sure if the Harley is up to world class standards as you state or if it is sub standard as you state. Lets not compare bikes of yester year to bikes of today. I had no intention of buying an old bike and if bad reliablity problems from years past is the basis for buying current models non of us would be buying any Japanese cars because as I remember they were the biggest pieces of junk on the road and are now the leaders in the industry. As far as idiots with attitude unfortunately you find those everywhere riding anything. I don't hate sport bikes just because young punks are usually on them and if you want attitude they have plenty. I know a couple of idiots that drive Honda civics but that doesn't make me hate the car, I may hate the idiot though. lol

And the redheads .....oh yes there is a wild ride for sure lol.

[Ivor biggin]

the wind in your face, the rumble in your ear and yes a little bad boy image. :)

And today I bought a VFR.
IB>:D

[KZDon]

Sorry Rye, you haven't convinced me. The Harleys I've ridden in the past two years have been dinosauresque. Two of those were V-Rods and at least one of the others was the newest HD FI engine. They reminded me of kids' toys that are set up to "try me" in the store, but you have to pull out a little battery cover tag to make the toy do all its tricks. My 27 year old beater KZ felt tighter and quicker.

In the end, people don't choose particular bikes for logical reasons. The irrationalities are large. Why is it that Harleys are held separate from all other motorcycles? In my view, it is because Harley sells a lifestyle, and everyone else sells motorcycles.

Good for Harley for making good business decisions. Sad for the folks who buy the lifestyle and miss out on life.

[ryeguy7]

Sorry Rye, you haven't convinced me.
Sad for the folks who buy the lifestyle and miss out on life.

I haven't been trying to convince anyone, maybe that is my point I will choose whatever bike I choose and I will not try to say it is better than anyone elses. The perfect bike is the perfect bike for the person sitting in the seat and that is all. My whole point of entering into this thread was to oppose those that where bashing HD. Not because I think HD are the best but because who the hell where they to think their opinions where right in regards to a personal choice each buyer makes. If HD was so bad as everyone here says then how do they stay in business let alone hold 39% of the market share here in Canada for bikes over 650cc. And if the sport bikes are so dam good and so much cheaper then why don't they have the lions share of the market. The average Harley buyer is 35-54, an annual income of 85,000+, college/universty educated and apparently retarded and an asshole, if I was to believe everything here. I am sorry but for all the reliablity problems that they have or may have had I still see alot of old harleys still going up and down the highways......funny seeing an old kawie 900 or an old honda 750 4 is a very rare sight. You know all of the HD bashing may convince me to buy one because ( and I don't mean you here KZ) I am not sure I would want to side and ride with a group that sound like a bunch of school girls that are jealous of the head cheerleader dating the QB and hating her for it. Just exactly how many websites have harley owners set up bashing sportbikes.....I will guess none. I already have a life and don't need to buy a lifestyle and hate to think the brand of bike I choose to ride would make a difference either way.

[ryeguy7]

And just before I leave this thread alone I wanted to clear up a couple of the things I have read here that demonstrates how foolish people can be.

HD has more lawyers than engineers...last year HD spent 185.5 million on R&D, that must be some lawyer pool they have.

HD makes more money on general merchandise than on bikes.....Total revenue last year 5.7 billion, Gross profit 2.1 billion General merch sales 305 million. and licensing fees 46 million. They must be business genious's to put 2.1 billion into there pockets with 351 million in revenue.

[Ivor biggin]

This year, so far, every bike I`ve seen out there on the road has been a Harley and the guys that are riding them are the same guys who have been wearing Harley tee shirts and jackets all winter. I don`t know where you guys ride but if I want to go East or West in this great country of ours I have to ride on the trans Canada and in these travels I`m sure to see more Harleys than any other bike on the road. So are all these people crazy or are we just missing the point?
IB.

[sportbikecalgary]

Ya I'm done with the HD bashing... we could argue back and forth, toss stats at each other and dig up dirt 'till none of the manufacturers sound good.


The perfect bike is the perfect bike for the person sitting in the seat and that is all.
That sums it up nicely.


I already have a life and don't need to buy a lifestyle and hate to think the brand of bike I choose to ride would make a difference either way.

Don't think it won't. All the manufacturers have caught on to the Harley lifestyle awareness and are working hard at maintaining their owner base through brand recognition. With 2 duc shops in town, a week doesn't go by that I don't get an invite to something Ducati related here in Calgary. I can choose to participate or not.

Don't get me started on BMW riders! As well I can point out some CBX owners that for some unknown reason maintain and ride their 28 year old scoots. Then there's those Laverda riders out in Vernon. ..and the KLR gang out of Nelson. Ever been to a Goldwing rally? Lifestyle by bike choice abounds! If you are an active participant in the sport of motorcycling I think you'll find you can weather any BS flung at you by others.

IF you decide to make the Harley purchase, make sure you post some pics on here so we can oooo and ahhh. You find most of the participants on the CC forum to be enthusiasts and not really caring what you ride. If you could get that cheerleader into some tight leathers, maybe on her own bike.... now we'd be jealous.

[ryeguy7]

And to think I thought I was done with this thread lol,but when you see something that just makes you laugh you have to share it with others. So I am just casually reading some of the other threads and while reading the thread about the sportbike rally I just couldn't believe my eyes....sorry KZ but this is your quote "I've never been there (bike died half way), but I recognize the importance and significance of the event" LMAO Now I think I am done.:)

[metalredneck]

it is interesting how the harley mystique rests on selling individualism by marketing the same old stereotypes. if you want to be free, just come be one of the gang. be yourself, an individual, by being like everyone else.

just keep being a consumer...;)

[RickO]

And just before I leave this thread alone I wanted to clear up a couple of the things I have read here that demonstrates how foolish people can be....HD makes more money on general merchandise than on bikes.....Total revenue last year 5.7 billion, Gross profit 2.1 billion General merch sales 305 million. and licensing fees 46 million. They must be business genious's to put 2.1 billion into there pockets with 351 million in revenue.

I stand corrected on the merchandise v. bike sales.

I checked for myself in the pdf file that can be downloaded at this address:

http://investor.harley-davidson.com/downloads/factsheet.pdf

You stand to be corrected though, on the median income of the typical Harley owner. Page 52 of the above file shows $82,100 as the 2006 median household income of a Harley owner.

Yet another urban myth exploded: the average Harley owner is not a dentist or a lawyer after all.

[ryeguy7]

I stand corrected on the merchandise v. bike sales.

I checked for myself in the pdf file that can be downloaded at this address:

http://investor.harley-davidson.com/downloads/factsheet.pdf

You stand to be corrected though, on the median income of the typical Harley owner. Page 52 of the above file shows $82,100 as the 2006 median household income of a Harley owner.

Yet another urban myth exploded: the average Harley owner is not a dentist or a lawyer after all.

I am sorry but if you want to correct me try using current data yourself. Check the 10k submission for 2007 and you will find that the number is $84,300, sorry for the rounding but I didn't think $700 made a difference. Of course my point was pointing out a roughly 2 billion dollar error but I guess in your mind we are even. I guess little things are a big deal to little people.This forum gets dumber by the second.

[RickO]

I am sorry but if you want to correct me try using current data yourself. Check the 10k submission for 2007 and you will find that the number is $84,300, sorry for the rounding but I didn't think $700 made a difference. Of course my point was pointing out a roughly 2 billion dollar error but I guess in your mind we are even. I guess little things are a big deal to little people.This forum gets dumber by the second.

Hey Ryeguy!

You may remember me as the guy that said welcome after your first post and then supported your position and said I hope you enjoy whatever you bought. Well I guess I was too hasty...Go fuck yourself!

[ryeguy7]

Hey Ryeguy!

You may remember me as the guy that said welcome after your first post and then supported your position and said I hope you enjoy whatever you bought. Well I guess I was too hasty...Go fuck yourself!

Yes you were and I do apologise for finally snappping on your post but after 2 days of opposing stupidity, not necessarlly from you I guess my patenience for it is gone. I just found it obsurd for the person that made a huge mis -statement to then get picky over a couple of grand even when it was only 700.

And Ricko this next statement is not directed at you at all..... did any of you ever think that Hd riders are not that friendly to sport bikers because they know how you feel about them. And none of you are shy about it, from websites to forums bashing them it is no wonder they don't want anything to do with you. I know personally if I knew someone was bashing me behind my back I sure as hell wouldn't go out of my way to be friendly to them. You talk about how HD riders think they are the best but out of all the forums I have been to and read it seems only the SBers think they are the only smart ones with the good bikes and as I have read it the HDers are the dumbys on shit bikes. After only 2 days on here, and I don't even own a HD it leaves a foul taste.

[metalredneck]

RickO sez:

Hey Ryeguy!

You may remember me as the guy that said welcome after your first post and then supported your position and said I hope you enjoy whatever you bought. Well I guess I was too hasty...Go fuck yourself!

metalredneck sez: what he said. =1 to ricko.

[KZDon]

And to think I thought I was done with this thread lol,but when you see something that just makes you laugh you have to share it with others. So I am just casually reading some of the other threads and while reading the thread about the sportbike rally I just couldn't believe my eyes....sorry KZ but this is your quote "I've never been there (bike died half way), but I recognize the importance and significance of the event" LMAO Now I think I am done.:)

You are apparently reading something into that quote that I think equates to sportbike banner waving. SBR has been one of the largest tourist events in a flagging town, important to the local profile and economy. It is important to motorcycling as it is portrayed and perceived as a rather benign gathering of motorcyclists, rather than the ubiquitous F13/Sturgess/Daytona bike week biker bash full T and A and tatoos. Latterly it has hosted rounds of the fledgling supermoto series and exceptional international trials events. The "heroes" of SBR are not Donny Petersons or Indian Larrys, erstwhile representatives of the Dark Side (Luke) with questionable judgement and more interesting friends, but people like Fast Eddie, Mark Moloney and Lawrence Hacking, and Lynn Middaugh. Soon I'll add Toz to that list.

Perhaps most importantly is the way in which SBR is not perceived as bikers raiding a town, as in Port Dover. In my view, that is important for motorcycling.

Those are my 2 cents anyway.

[ryeguy7]

You are apparently reading something into that quote that I think equates to sportbike banner waving. SBR has been one of the largest tourist events in a flagging town, important to the local profile and economy. It is important to motorcycling as it is portrayed and perceived as a rather benign gathering of motorcyclists, rather than the ubiquitous F13/Sturgess/Daytona bike week biker bash full T and A and tatoos. Latterly it has hosted rounds of the fledgling supermoto series and exceptional international trials events. The "heroes" of SBR are not Donny Petersons or Indian Larrys, erstwhile representatives of the Dark Side (Luke) with questionable judgement and more interesting friends, but people like Fast Eddie, Mark Moloney and Lawrence Hacking, and Lynn Middaugh. Soon I'll add Toz to that list.

Perhaps most importantly is the way in which SBR is not perceived as bikers raiding a town, as in Port Dover. In my view, that is important for motorcycling.

Those are my 2 cents anyway.

KZ I am not sure what you have read but what I was talking about was what was written in Red. The event had no bearing on what point I was making. The point was the only thing I have heard about HD here so far is how I will be on the side of the road broken down and only the Japanese are reliable. I simply making the note that you broke down on the highway on a 2 hour ride to Parry Sound and you don't ride a harley. I just found it ironic.

[ryeguy7]

RickO sez:

Hey Ryeguy!

You may remember me as the guy that said welcome after your first post and then supported your position and said I hope you enjoy whatever you bought. Well I guess I was too hasty...Go fuck yourself!

metalredneck sez: what he said. =1 to ricko.

whatever...hope you feel better

[metalredneck]

so tell us unenlightened riders; as a non-rider, what makes you want to take up & shell out to ride now? why a cruiser? what did you ride before, if you did?

p.s.: i only ride vintage stuff i rebuild myself, not sportbikes, and i have had a hog. this is year # 29 of motorcycling for me.

[ryeguy7]

so tell us unenlightened riders; as a non-rider, what makes you want to take up & shell out to ride now? why a cruiser? what did you ride before, if you did?

p.s.: i only ride vintage stuff i rebuild myself, not sportbikes, and i have had a hog. this is year # 29 of motorcycling for me.

I rode for 10 years when I was younger but what does it matter and I am not going to go into the list of bikes because as I recall you joined ricko in telling me to fuck off in your last post.

[mrspock]

People , people , people , let save the poking with poisoned tipped pointy sticks to government officials . Look , we all have our opinions on what we like to ride , why we like our rides and what we don't like about some other rides .... BUT , at the end of the day , we RIDE , and THATS all that matters .

As for the question of what I would fork out cash for , I am a Honda person myself . I have had many Goldwings , including one that was once a featured bike right here in C/C a few years ago . I moved to an ST 1100 and while I am at the moment , bikeless ( but thats another story ) I like my Honda's , but admire all bikes .

So , as the absolute evil overlord of the universe , I hereby decree that all conflicts are resolved and closed . :-) ( can I do that by the way ? )


spock

[KZDon]

KZ I am not sure what you have read but what I was talking about was what was written in Red. The event had no bearing on what point I was making. The point was the only thing I have heard about HD here so far is how I will be on the side of the road broken down and only the Japanese are reliable. I simply making the note that you broke down on the highway on a 2 hour ride to Parry Sound and you don't ride a harley. I just found it ironic.

Ah, fair enough. Most of the old farts around here know my aged KZ was a back of a garage find of an old friend, who donated it to me. We have four little people, and despite its somewhat questionable shape, I keep this bike because I have that niggling fear that if I let it go, I would have a bit of time getting another one, in light of competing concerns.

Interestingly, another old friend, who was riding with me on my way from Whitby to SBR that day, reminded me today that we had just finished cleaning the carbs on my KZ and it ran like a top. I, on the other hand, had the flu or something like that, drank a bottle of water at Washago and rode to my mother's south of Orillia for a lay down.

So go buy yourself a Harley, and we'll see you, out there.

[metalredneck]

So go buy yourself a Harley we'll see you, out there.

i think he means we'll pass and / or dodge your traffic-clogging ass out there. at least i do. last fall even motor-homes were passing the conga-line of fresh wannabes on pig-iron around here.

>:/

[ryeguy7]

i think he means we'll pass and / or dodge your traffic-clogging ass out there. at least i do. last fall even motor-homes were passing the conga-line of fresh wannabes on pig-iron around here.

>:/

Once a redneck always a redneck I guess.....and only a redneck would be proud of being an idiot.

[Uwe W.]

Earlier in this thread I let a few insults slide because I thought everyone would eventually resolve their differences peacefully.

This forum has a long history of civility and good manners; schoolyard insults and ill-tempered outbursts are not only out of place, but will not be tolerated. Don't forget that people come here to enjoy themselves, and not to be verbally attacked.

Unfortunately I've recently had to cut text out of a few posts. There isn't any need to single anyone out, or turn this into a big issue; I'm just asking everyone to settle down a little and try and gain some perspective.

It's a common passion that brings everyone to this forum. Surely we can discuss our differences of opinion without tearing each other to shreds.

Thank you. :)

[Ivor biggin]

I have followed this thread from the start and even stuck in me two cents worth but didn`t see any of that shit comming.
Good work Uwe.
IB.

[Rocking Couple]

Didn't see it coming? Where'd ya leave your magnifiers IB? :p

[Ivor biggin]

Honest RC, I didn`t. But then I`ve been in bar fights that I didn`t see comming either.
IB>:D

[Rocking Couple]

Dang then.... i'm gonna remember that if we get caught in the middle of some roudy HD t-shirts this summer on one of our pit stops, if you're my only back-up..
;)

[Ivor biggin]

You`ll be O.K., I`ll even hold your jacket.
IB.
PS. Who would pick on an old fart with a big smile on his face and who rides a ST?:rolleyes:

[metalredneck]

provoking dialogue thru measured insanity. never call names, tell 'em what to do & where to go. and apparrently what brand of bike to do it on. i would like to see what big brother censored out, tho...:eek:

[Sidecar Bob]

These comments are for Ryeguy's benefit, but the Harley bashing sport bike crowd could maybe learn a bit from them and grow up a bit.


I haven't been trying to convince anyone, maybe that is my point I will choose whatever bike I choose and I will not try to say it is better than anyone elses.
OK guys. Let's applaud that attitude. If more Harley guys had taken that stance 25 years ago maybe there wouldn't be the same amount of Harley bashing now that there is.

Please note: The "if it's not a Harley it's not a real bike" attitude seems to be fading away more every year. Good. It's too bad it's being replaced by the "if it's a Harley it's not a real bike" attitude.


The perfect bike is the perfect bike for the person sitting in the seat and that is all.
As a lot of the people here know, I was in a bike club for some years. We accepted all makes & models, but there was a subtle attitude that you really needed to "move up" to a Harley. I was made 2nd Road Captain while on a Dnepr sidecar outfit because the Harley guy who was elected as RC felt I was the best for the job. When he had to step down because conflicting a work schedule prevented him from attending club runs I became RC and lead the group on my GS400.
One of the fellows had always wanted a Katana. When he finally got one it was his pride & joy. I always said that, even though it was a bike that I would never want to own, it was the best bike there was for him. The smile on his face every time he climbed off of it was the best proof of that. If you get a Harley and have the same kind of smile then that Harley is worth twice it's weight in sport bikes.
And considering what Harleys weigh, that's really saying something ;-)


If HD was so bad as everyone here says then how do they stay in business let alone hold 39% of the market share here in Canada for bikes over 650cc. And if the sport bikes are so dam good and so much cheaper then why don't they have the lions share of the market.
I think the answer may have something to do with the "over 650cc" part. I think the numbers would be a lot different if you compared them to other bikes over 50 HP. Don't forget that my '84 Honda V-twin 650 is rated at 65 HP and Harley didn't produce a V-twin with that kind of power until quite a few years later.


I am sorry but for all the reliablity problems that they have or may have had I still see alot of old harleys still going up and down the highways......funny seeing an old kawie 900 or an old honda 750 4 is a very rare sight.
I don't know where you are looking, but I see a good number of 20+ year old Hondas around here. Most of them are GoldWings, but a number of them are SilverWings, CB750s &c. I'm sorry I can't make the same observations about other makes, but I just don't pay them much attention unless I'm actually talking to the person on one. I can't tell what makes the sportbikes are either (let alone how old they are) - sorry guys, but they all look alike to me.
I also wonder if some of those old Harleys aren't really newer Harleys that are styled to resemble older ones. This is one of Harley's genuine strengths: if you like the look of an old Harley but don't want to deal with the issues of owning an older bike you can get one that fills the bill. The Springer Softail comes to mind.


Just exactly how many websites have harley owners set up bashing sportbikes.....I will guess none.
I don't know about that, but, as I said before, they used to do a fair amount of bashing in person before websites existed.
I have even heard of Harley guys literally bashing Jap bikes.

I saw this myself at the Ride For Sight in '86:
One of the wreckers provided a bike for an event called "Blow a Bike". (If you aren't familiar, they drain the oil from the engine, start it, lock the throttle wide open, and start the stopwatch. When the engine dies the person with the closest time wins.) After the bike died a half drunk HD guy came up and asked if he could hit it with a stick. When they said no he offered them a couple of $. Pretty soon there were a line of black leather clad guys actually paying money (it went to the RP foundation) to take a swing at it with everything from iron pipes to 2x4s.

I have heard of cases where Jap bikes have been destroyed in similar displays (without the veneer of respectability afforded by raising funds for a charity) when their owners showed up on them at HD get togethers, and still others where Jap bikes were brought to Harley rallies for that specific purpose.

It's no wonder the owners of other brands are offended by this attitude and react by bashing Harleys. Figuratively only, that is.


I already have a life and don't need to buy a lifestyle and hate to think the brand of bike I choose to ride would make a difference either way.
Good. In that case, go and buy your Harley. You will be able to resist the "Harley religion" because you are not using the Harley image to fill an empty place in your life.
I would encourage you to buy a Harley shirt to go with it to tell everyone that, although you have a Harley it isn't just a fassion statement.

Get the one that says:

..HARLEY-DAVIDSON
...I OWN THE BIKE
.NOT JUST THE SHIRT

[RB1]

Well said Bob. That's why this forum needed you back.

Weather must be the shits everywhere. You guys all really just need to get out for a ride.
Maybe today for me? Battery is ready to go back in the KLR, maybe +7 today. Still, with all the snow and ice around the air is colder than a witches breath. We'll see.

I do like that line about "pig-iron" though, reminds of the line from that Johnny Cash song. What is it Rock Island Line?

"I fooled you, I fooled you.
I got pig iron, I got pig iron,
I got all pig iron"

Where the hell's that CD box set now?


Coffee.....need more coffee.......

[Hayabusa]

...What pisses me off (and I think induces hate in some) are those annoying zealots who diss anything that isn't H-D and call your ancestry, patriotism and manhood into question if you ride anything else. Ironically, many are of the "I'd rather walk than ride anything but a Harley" variety that don't even own a bike.

There you go! That about sums it up for me as well. I think this element of the Motor Company and its Faithful is what spurns people into creating whole websites dedicated to bashing the marque.

I'm a bit of a demo ride day whore and in the last 10 years or so I've ridden:

- a Road King;
- an Electra Glide Ultra Classic;
- a Wide Glide;
- 2-3 Sportsters;
- a Low Rider;
- a V-Rod "Muscle"; and
- a few other models I can't even recall.

They are what they are. If H-D just went about building bikes to the highest standard of quality they could and offered them at a fair price, without pushing the lifestyle, then I'd probably be more likely to get onboard.

All brands sell T-shirts, ballcaps and the like, but honestly, walk into most Harley dealerships and they look like a clothing store with a motorcycle problem.

In the interest of fairness however, get out on the highways, away from built up areas, and the vast majority of bikes I've seen this season have been Harleys. Also check out the Iron Butt Association website - the highest mileage riders seem to be on H-D.

[Hayabusa]

...Last summer I was driving west on HW17 toward S.S.M., doing about a buck twenty, when this bike came up behind me and to my supprise it turned out to be a Harley. He passed me without a second look and was gone. He had some sort of insignia on his vest that started with an H but it wasn`t Harley Owners Group and then in my mirror I saw the rest of his riding buddies...

Hells Angels?

[Plain Peter P.]

We are on swampy stuff.

[Hayabusa]

Ivor B's post reminds me of one of my own...close encounters...with some OMG types...

About 9-10 years ago, I did a trip on my Bandit from ON to St. John's, Nfld.

When I got to the ferry terminal in North Sydney, the staff directed me to pull ahead of the cars and park my bike at the front of lane #1 - there were already two bikes there, a Goldwing and a small metric cruiser (both with Murray-can plates).

I decided to go into the terminal to use the facilities and just have a stroll. When I came back out to my bike, I could see two Harleys parked in amongst the other three. The riders were standing beside their bikes and getting changed out of their riding gear - chaps, half helmets, wrap-around shades, etc.

As I got closer I saw they were wearing gang colours - Para Dice Riders (T.O.) - full patched members.

They changed out of their engineer boots right there and put on Doc Marten low shoes, but the colours stayed up.

As I got to my bike they looked at me and then at my bike.

Picture me: riding a green 1200 Bandit, wearing a red Joe Rocket Ballistic 2-piece, Bieffe helmet, huge tankbag, spare helmet under bungee net on the pillion and soft sportbike style saddlebags.

Picture them: one was on an FLH type H-D, the other on a Low Rider type H-D. The LR bike had absurdly high ape-hanger bars.

They sized my bike up - a stock Bandit and asked if it was uncomfortable. :D:D:D

They were genuinely interested and displayed none of the if-it-ain't-Harley-it's-crap mentality that has been discussed in this thread. Their bikes had been ridden hard and hadn't seen wax or even water (aside from rain) in a long time.

When we loaded the bikes on the ferry, the deck crew gave us ratcheting straps and let us secure our bikes ourselves. It became obvious that the PDR guys had no schmick about tying down a bike. The ape-hanger guy ran one strap from the left side of his bike to the deck and was going to leave it at that.

As humorous as that would have been, when his bike toppled (which it definitely would have) it would have hit mine, so I helped him run straps on both sides and ratcheted it down securely.

The next morning when we rolled off the ferry and began the ride on the island, we pretty much leapfrogged each other. I'd pull in for gas and they'd blast by - loud pipes saving their lives 'n all...:D

A while later, I'd pass a gas station and see them parked at the pumps - so I have to hand it to them - they could ride as I was maintaining a pretty steady cruising speed between 130-150 km/h depending on traffic and conditions.

[Plain Peter P.]

Okay, and this is nice reading. You are the voice of reason here. But consider the 80-odd posts which precede this. (You may have time to read them.)

The hurt feelings and the rancour which came out of these amazes me. I wasn't here, or I would have been in the thick of it. Uwe had to get really weighty in slamming down on the offenders and the offended both.

It all points up that Harleys are heavier than some people thought. We'd be foolish to go over it all again.

How about that Canadian canoe splasher who won a tin medal? If Canada can't win at canoeing, we'll have to retreat to chopping logs...

[Hayabusa]

Okay, and this is nice reading. You are the voice of reason here. But consider the 80-odd posts which precede this. (You may have time to read them.)

The hurt feelings and the rancour which came out of these amazes me. I wasn't here, or I would have been in the thick of it. Uwe had to get really weighty in slamming down on the offenders and the offended both.

It all points up that Harleys are heavier than some people thought. We'd be foolish to go over it all again.

How about that Canadian canoe splasher who won a tin medal? If Canada can't win at canoeing, we'll have to retreat to chopping logs...

It's not a real motorcycle forum unless we flog the whole Harley/Harley bashing topic to death...many times over... [:deadhorse:]

[Ivor biggin]

[QUOTE=Plain Peter P.;2569

How about that Canadian canoe splasher who won a tin medal?[/QUOTE]

Or the Newfie who won a gold medal and his mom had it bronzed when he got home.
Or even the Newf who went to Beijing with a roll of barbed wire. Representing Canada in fencing.
I.B.

[Touring]

http://harleys-suck.redztread.com/whs.html

From the first paragraph in that thread..."If you own, or want to own, a H-D motorcycle, you are a victim of advertising and a conformist. That’s right, a conformist…not an individual."

I've often wondered..."If motorcyclists think of themselves as individuals, why then do so many ride in packs?" Mind you, that doesn't just apply to cruisers.

There is a HD T-Shirt that says...

Harley Davidson: The best way to convert gasoline into noise without the harmful side affect of creating horsepower!

I test drove one once. Fun, but not my type of motorcycle.

[Alvis]

My first bike was a new, off the floor HD 883 Sportster. WHy? Well, simple, "everybody" had told me that Harley was the best. So, as I had the cash, was young and stupid, I bought one. I have tio admit, it looked damn nice with a coat of wax, the bike made some nice noises, and it had the all important logo on the tank.

The trouble started when I started riding it as it if it was a new modern motorcycle. Naturally, the glued on Transport Canada regulated side reflector fell off. Next the self cancelling signal lights wouldn't work. BUlbs started blowing due to vibration. Witht he first hot, sunny days of an Okanagan summer, the paint started to cloud up! After the first service, sorry, glorified oil change,($100+!) , it went from bad to wrose. The front cylinder started leaking from between the rocker box and and the cyclinder head. "Just a breather..." the dealership said, nothing to worry about, no warranty work need. It leaks oil and it was normal? My riding season ended early that first year due to an unrealted incident (car accident, hurt myself pretty good, big insurance payout though...)

Season two rolls around, the oil leak is bad to worse, the oil sending unit fails, the front brake switch fails, which left my brake light on ALL THE TIME (almost got rearended I don't know how many times...) 3 taillight lenses vibrated off and cracked, numerous lights failed, trouble with the transmission and i hadn't even hit 15,000km! The icing on the cake was when I did the next oil change and found that the dealership had 1) used RED loctite on the primary inspection cover and2) never refilled the primary oil. Of course, I had gone to Alberta from BC and covered overed 2000km on that rip alone with oil in primary. Terrific! And those bastards had the nerve to charge me $100+ for that kind of "service"? The shifter lever cracked and broke and the replacement was no better, having cracked within the first 5 inch pounds of torque. I found a huge chunk of slag in the casting. Had to fight with the assholes at the parts counter to get me another. The fuel petcock filter was plugged with a silty sludge that looked like extra fine sand blasting medium, and it was also broken too. Funny thing about "Genuine HD Replacement Parts" as they all seem to come from Taiwan.....

So that winter I'd had enough! Pulled the front rockerbox to fix the oil flow, as it had now become, and found a disater! Of the four bolts that hold tghe assembly down, only ONE could be properly torqued. Two of the bolts were bent and had no threads on one side and the third had almost no threads cut into the cylinder head. Also, every oil change I did the oil looked like metallic paint even at 10,000km and 15,000km. 3rd would not stay engaged. The bloody thing was falling apart and it only had 16,000km and change on the clock. This was stupid. I bought a Triumph that spring and haven't looked back.

Hell, even my Frankenstein 58 Norton is a better bike. It is more powerful, the oil comes out clean with less than 1000km on the clock with a fresh engine and it VIBRATES A HELL OF A LOT LESS even with its "notoriously vibey" 750 Atlas motor. GO figure.

[GeländeStraße]

I am not so sure of that.

They do stick with their concept (with the obvious exception of V-Rods & Buell) but how long was it that Yamaha stuck with the V-Max? Twenty-five years or something like it? Pretty close if I'm wrong... How many years has Honda been selling a Goldwing? I know that they have improved that machine (according to Honda & it's target demographic) steadily since the mid-seventies introduction but it's still doing what it always did - albeit somewhat better. See my point? HD is considered to be perfection by many motorcyclists. Who the fuck am I to tell them ANY differently? "Arrogant", that's who. I really like that new sporty-ish Dyna model (Fat Bob? methinks) and would love to try one out. I think the Nightster looks cool (buddy of mine back in Newfoundland has one and loves it).

What I cannot abide is some idiot telling me that my taste is somehow 'wrong'. I also hate it when someone piously tells me that I am missing out on some greater aspect of life because I have not partaken in the joys of "X":mad:. My buddy has a Buell & an old Shovelhead. On a long run he MORE than appreciates a turn running my FJR. He calls it a rocket-ship, comfortable, good-handling, etc. He appreciates what it does & how it does it. He just likes HD stuff MUCH more as he appreciates their style. I do not have anything to prove to the guy - he likes what he likes. More's the point: why the fuck would I?

I like Guzzis, Ducatis, Yamahas (a lot), Suzukis, Triumphs (a lot), HD's, MV-Augustas, KTM's (a lot), Beemers, etc., etc. But some of their owners REALLY annoy the shit outta me. We can talk about how some (even a lot) of HD owners ignorantly proclaim that their machines represent the highest expression of the bike-building industry. [B]That's[B] stupid. But when some guys says that HE FEELS that the HD machine is the best out there for him, then that is an invitation to further discussion NOT insults.

I'm kinda surprised at myself here - I usually avoid HD or sportbike-bashing threads like the plague...:rolleyes:

John.

Okay, while we're on the Harley subject, I have to point the finger at the V-Max. The thing's a dinosaur.