Steve, don't be a leftist

[islander]

I have to ask what provoked you to play traffic cop. It would seem to me you are guilty of what I personally hate most about harley riders, they won't move right to let a faster bike by or they cruise in a pack a 5 k over the limit in the left lane of a multi-lane. If someone wants to risk a ticket let em. To admit that you moved left dominant to keep him behind you is an admission you were the instigator of the whole incident. Honestly I would have blown by on the right if you pulled that crap on me as well. No punch to the head would have followed but a get the F&*k out of the way would be unavoidable. Don't be a left lane bandit Steve, it makes you appear to be a bit of a whiney dick.

[TimP]

Perhaps I misunderstood Steve's situation in the article but my take was that the Harley guy passed on the right in Steve's lane. Perhaps I spend too much time on the roads of Toronto but I can't imagine this level of anger on the part of either rider just for passing in the right lane. I could be wrong.

[YellowDuck]

Also, I didn't get the impression that his intention was to "play traffic cop" (i.e., restrict the other rider's speed) - he just didn't feel that he needed to speed up, given that he was already exeeding the limit.

[islander]

I think the main point I am trying to make is Steve could have moved lane right and waved buddy past. Instead he gave the distinct impression of staying dominant lane left which can convey the message of stay behind me. The harley guy didnt fly past in a display of anger, or waving a finger. Steves reaction was just too far over the top. No reaction no incident. He is lucky not to have done this in the US he could have had a pistol pulled on him instead of being punched.

[Gears of Roar]

I think the main point I am trying to make is Steve could have moved lane right and waved buddy past. Instead he gave the distinct impression of staying dominant lane left which can convey the message of stay behind me. The harley guy didnt fly past in a display of anger, or waving a finger. Steves reaction was just too far over the top. No reaction no incident. He is lucky not to have done this in the US he could have had a pistol pulled on him instead of being punched.

I think your main point misses the point completely. At no time is it safe to pass someone in their lane. If the guy following Steve wanted to pass him so desperately he could have done so by passing him on the left, in the oncoming traffic lane the way the rest of society does. Passing someone in their own lane is complete insanity. Who's to say, just at the guy was passing him, that Steve wouldn't have needed to swerve to the right to avoid something on the road?

By your twisted logic it should also be safe for car drivers to pass in the same lane too then. Hell, why not school buses... oh, and an 18 wheeler while we're at it. It's not safe AND it's illegal. Give your head a shake buddy. You're looking at this all wrong.

[islander]

Last time I checked it was easy to fit two bikes in one lane, a little harder to get two cars in one lane. I would also have to guess it wasn,t dangerous or illegal for Steve to ride beside harley guy (to the right) with one hand on the bars and yelling. Can you honestly say you have never gone around another bike on the right? The saddest thing is the incident was over if Steve had just kept on riding.
Try riding in California where lane splitting is legal and getting passed on the right by other bikes ( if you don,t move) are commonplace. Before you sound off I know its not California, its just not as dangerous as we are led to believe. You have mirrors learn to use them.
I started reading the editorial wanting to be pissed with harley guy, loud pipes, the "uniform" and attitudes usually suck. Harley guy may even have started the incident with "the pass". Unfortunately Steve's actions aways esclated the situation.
He asks if there is a difference between he and harley guy. Harley guy initially tried to ride away. He didn't come find Steve. Who is the bigger asshole?

[Gears of Roar]

Can you honestly say you have never gone around another bike on the right?

He asks if there is a difference between he and harley guy. Harley guy initially tried to ride away. He didn't come find Steve. Who is the bigger asshole?

I can honestly say never. If I need to pass someone, escpecially when I'm on my bike, I do it easily and safely by using the oncoming traffic's left lane. There are no excuses for passing someone in their lane. None.

I'd say the guy that punched Steve was the bigger asshole. First he put everyone's life at risk by a stupid pass, then he assaulted him. Just because Steve chased him down to give him a piece of his mind (and point out how dangerous his riding was) doesn't give anyone the right to punch someone in the face. Come on. I'm blow away that someone can attempt to defend the actions of such a irresponsible and violent person.

[yzf1000jon]

Passing on the right, or riding side by side for that matter, is unsafe, irresponsible, and illegal. Steve's confrontation is understandable, the harley riders response is unfortunately not surprising. It should be far more difficult to get ones license (car or bike) than it currently is, thus removing irresponsible and ignorant riders from the road, whatever they ride. Wheelie happy squids in shorts, or leather clad loud pipe outlaw wannabes, would all have to prove they can ride well and with control before being allowed to.

[KZDon]

Actually, passing on the right (or left) in the same lane isn't illegal for motorcycles in Alberta. The convoluted wording of the Traffic Safety Act makes riding side by side and offence, but doesn't proscribe passing in the same lane.

In any case, passing in the same lane is just something I wouldn't do unless I implicitly trust the other rider, and he or she knows exactly what I'm going to do.

[Gears of Roar]

Actually, passing on the right (or left) in the same lane isn't illegal for motorcycles in Alberta.

I was under the impression that this happened in BC? :confused:

[KZDon]

I was under the impression that this happened in BC? :confused:

No idea. I just looked up the Alberta act and read the section. If I have time later I'll look up the relevant BC legislation.

[stevethornton]

Just to set the record straight, this incident happened on a two-lane road near the middle of a British Columbia town. I don't recall thinking that this rider wanted to pass, but if I had, I might have waved him by.

[TimP]

I think I already know the answer to this, Steve, but did turn signals (or hand signals) come into play at all? There are just so many things wrong in what Mr. HD did that I have to conclude, as you seem to have, that they were intentional provocations. It wouldn't have taken much for Mr. HD to have behaved differently.

Remember that scene in Smokey and the Bandit where Cledus gets beaten up in the biker bar? Two more wheels under you and he would have lost his paltry bad-ass advantage. Sixteen more and you wouldn't even have felt a bump. Maybe next time.

I'm not advocating road rage, but I understand where it comes from.

[BrianS]

Let me see if I got this right.

Mr. Thornton was riding down the road after work, doing the “right” speed over the speed limit, hugging the center line and another motorcycle, which Mr. Thornton was watching in his mirrors, slowly caught up and slowly passed him on the right side of his lane. Mr. Thornton goes into what sounds to me like full blown road rage, speeds up, catches up to the other motorcyclist and yells at him about the incident. The other motorcyclist rides off, obviously not wanting anything to do with Mr. Thornton. Our Hero then rides around town, spots the other motorcyclist, approaches him, asks, without yelling, ( I am sure he was real polite, cause by this time his road rage must have worn off) if he always rides like that. The other motorcyclist, apparently NOT thinking Mr. Thornton was being polite, gets off his bike shakes our hero by the shoulders, and gives him a shot in the face, gets on his bike and rides away. Mr. Thornton dials 911, reports this unprovoked attack, and, when the RCMP calls him back, he is disappointed that they didn’t do anything about it.
Because of all this, our Hero hates all people who ride Harley Davidson Motorcycles.

Hmmmmmm.

Personally, when riding by myself, and I see another motorcycle approaching from the rear, I usually do one of a number of things. I will pull to the right side of the lane, allowing him room to pass, I will stay on the yellow line, giving room for him to pull beside if he chooses, or if I do not wish the person to pull alongside and ride with me , I will move closer to the center of the lane, not leaving much space to pull alongside. If, when riding the yellow line, the other bike passes me on the right, not accepting my invitation to ride beside me, I have no problem with that, as I have left ample room.

Years ago, riding side by side was more socially acceptable. Is it as safe as riding staggered? Probably not. Is it illegal in BC? No, it is not. Is passing a motorcycle in the same lane as safe as passing in the oncoming lane with no traffic coming? Probably not. Is it illegal in BC? No, it is not.
The BC motor vehicle act, section 194, subsection 4 states “Except when overtaking and passing other motorcycles, more than 2 operators of motorcycles must not operate their motorcycles side by side in the same direction in the same traffic lane.”
I read this as not only is it legal to pass a motorcycle in the same lane, you can pass 2 motorcycles riding side by side in the same lane. Safe? Probably not. Smart? Probably not. Illegal? No.
Had I been following Mr. Thornton that day, I might have read his riding close to the center line as an invitation to ride with him, or to pass.

Mr. Thornton takes issue with the other rider passing this way, and has been frustrated before when sportbike riders in Ontario did the same thing, at faster speeds, on a twisty road. Did he chase down the sportbike riders and give them a piece of his mind? He doesn’t mention it.

It has been my experience that if you want to avoid physical confrontation, it is a good idea to refrain from initiating verbal confrontation. Our Hero yelled at the other biker and fingered him. The other biker may have felt Mr. Thornton was actively looking for him when he stopped to “talk”. I am thinking a lot of people, not just Harley riders, might just poke a guy in the face when being verbally accosted.

From personal experience, I know that he RCMP will not charge a person for assault if there has been a verbal confrontation prior to the physical confrontation. They call that a consensual fight.

Next, Mr. Thornton follows the Harley, gets the plate number, stops, and dials 911 to report an assault. 911 is an emergency number to call when there is an immediate threat or crime in progress. EMERGENCY. There are other numbers to call when reporting a crime. There was no emergency or imminent threat. I believe misuse of the 911 service might actually be against the law.

After finding the “Idiot on the Harley”, it sounds like the RCMP decided not to pursue the matter. We, the readers of Cycle Canada heard only one side of the story. I believe the RCMP heard both sides, which, I am sure, prompted the decision to tell our Hero it was the wrong guy.

Mr. Thornton says he wrote this article a couple of hours after the incident. I can see someone writing an article like this in the final stages of road rage. I find it hard to believe that he actually submitted it to Cycle Canada. I find it equally hard to believe that the publishers of Cycle Canada decided to print this in their magazine. I, for one, may decide NOT to pick up the next issue of Cycle Canada at the newsstand because of this article.

[YellowDuck]

Wow, that's quite a first post!

Would you really stop reading CC over this though? Now who is over-reacting?

Totally agree that Steve over-reacted, and also that he could have chosen his lane positon better given the situation. Totally disagree that passing another rider that you don't know, in his lane, on the right is A-OK. It's not - it's rude as hell in my book.

[BrianS]

Sorry. That should read “this type of article.”
I am not a regular Cycle Canada reader, but do occasionally pick one up. I was under the impression that CC catered to the entire motorcycle community, not any specific group. Had Mr. Thornton’s incident been with someone on a sport bike or a dual sport, I am betting there wouldn’t have an article at all, or at least it wouldn’t have made it to press.
Mr. Thornton was a dick, and somehow we are all to believe it was the Harley rider’s fault.(or maybe that all Harley riders’ are at fault) Perhaps passing on the right was rude, but, again, I might have taken Mr. Thornton’s staying on the center line as an invitation to pass on the right. And then for CC to place a full page ad with a tough looking Harley guy on the opposite page. Give me a break.
There is already enough dissention between the Harley and other segments of the motorcycle community without Cycle Canada adding fuel to the fire. I will most likely continue to buy the occasional magazine, but I will watch to see if this trend continues. If so, I will not be spending my money on a magazine that slams one segment of my community.

[TimP]

Brian, I don't think the issue here is either the marque either was riding or the strict legality of the pass. Riding side-by-side at speed is an accident waiting to happen. There's nowhere for you to go if your buddy swerves or drifts. Passing on the right is unexpected, and doing anything unexpected is stupid, especially on a bike. Use your head.

[yzf1000jon]

What he said.

[Ivor biggin]

...,then it was through the opening of my full-face helmet, gloved and heavy...
O.K. go and get your helmet, put on a glove, make a fist and try to get it through the opening. Harley Dude had to have amazing dexterity or the hands of a three year old as the clearance, if there is any, is so small. The slightest reactionary move on Steve's part would have had the blow landing harmlessly on his helmet. If Steve moves that slow it`s not surprising that the guy wanted to pass.
I.B.

[TimP]

...or the hands of a three year old...
I.B.

Maybe he's compensating?

Good to see you poking your nose in, I.B. How've you been?

[KZDon]

So, I found the issue with Steve's column last night and re-read it.

Steve had to have mulled his two choices when he saw Harley guy parked on the side street, and that loose dendrite in his frontal lobe just fired at the wrong time, because he (and I'm quite sure he knows it now) made the wrong decision.

Steve's reaction was road rage. He ought to have known better. He is lucky to have come away with only a red welt and bruised pride. It wouldn't have mattered if the other rider was on a sportbike, a big dually or a Smart car, it was clear he was a dickhead when he did the inside pass. Staying the fuck away from other drivers who do stupid things is just good sense.

[BrianS]

I agree completely that passing on the right, without a go-ahead from the rider ahead is a complete dickhead move. I would think that even though it is technically legal in BC to pass in the same lane, if a rider was to pass on the right without insuring the other rider was aware and was ok with it, and in doing so caused an accident, he would probably be charged with dangerous driving or some such offense.

As we have seen here, some riders would be more ok with a right side pass, as long as it wasn't unexpected, than others. So how can we ensure that the rider ahead knows you are there and is ok with the pass?

I am pretty confident that I can usually tell if a rider I am approaching from behind has seen me in his mirrors. You can see him turn his head towards his mirror, and sometimes, you can even get a glimpse of his face in the mirror, if you are reasonably close behind him. So, if the rider sees you in the mirror, you can assume he knows you are there.

So, if we are comfortable that he knows you are there, how can we know if he is ok with the pass? Well, I guess he could wave you ahead. But, with a right side pass, a guy would have to wave with his throttle hand.
I suppose that if the fellow was not ok with the pass he could move closer to the center of the lane, not allowing much room for a pass. That would make it pretty clear that he knows you are there, but does not want you to pass on the right.
I wonder if the leading rider was to hug the yellow line, if that might not indicate that he is making room to allow for the pass.

So, if rider is watching in his mirrors and sees that a fellow rider is catching up to him, it is a pretty safe bet that the following rider should be aware that he has been seen. If the lead bike hugs the center line, and doesn't move over towards the center of the lane, I think that one could assume that the OK has been given to pass.

[cx500]

An issue in my mind is the lack of courtesy. If I see another bike coming up behind going faster than me, I will usually move over to the right side of the lane and wave him by. Obviously I also consider other road conditions first, and wait for the tighter curve or other sight-restricted situation to clear.

Out west, with paved shoulders, if they are clean I will even move over to the shoulder on straight sections to allow a leadfoot in a car to get by. After all, it's useful to have a blocker ahead to keep the revenuers busy. I tend to cruise over the limit, but hopefully just below the actionable level.

jds

[BrianS]

Exactly

[Ivor biggin]

Good to see you poking your nose in, I.B. How've you been?

Pretty good TimP, spending lots of time on the Canadian Snowblowers forum. It`s great, most of the guys really own snowblowers and some actually use them.
I.B.

[TimP]

The threat of having to cope with the occasional Toronto "blizzard" encouraged me to buy an Ariel last year (with optional waterski tow ring), so I'd appreciate the link.

[Ivor biggin]

The threat of having to cope with the occasional Toronto "blizzard" encouraged me to buy an Ariel last year (with optional waterski tow ring), so I'd appreciate the link.

Try www. canadianmilitary/armysnowremoval.ca
I.B.

[TimP]

You know, I actually copied that URL into a fresh window and tried to go there. For God's sake, somebody get me out of here!

[Ivor biggin]

For God's sake, somebody get me out of here!
Quote Mel Lastman.:rolleyes:
I.B.

[PeterTrocewicz]

I would never pass another motorcyclist in the same lane, and i don't like it being done to me. It is just an accident waiting to happen If I need to pass, I do it properly. How do I know that that rider has the skill and nerve to cope with such a move? How do I know that that rider is not going to need to suddenly swerve for some reason? And just knowing that another rider knows that I am behind him/her does not automatically mean that he/she is OK with being passed in his/her lane. It can be very unnerving. That being said, I would not chase down another rider for an altercation.

[Ivor biggin]

It can be very unnerving.

I don`t know about unnerving but that sort of pass does show a complete lack of respect and is probably indicative of the guys attitude towards others generally.
I.B.

[Yamahuh]

Whether he was passed on the left or the right; in his lane or not; whether he was right to get in the face of the HD dude or should have let it go; whether said HD guy had hands like a girl or Steve's nose is just too big - these questions are inconsequential. You guys are arguing over the scraps left behind after a full roast beef dinner. The roast beef dinner question is this - Who the hell gets passed by a Harley??

:D

[JJ Joseph]

I can honestly say never. If I need to pass someone, escpecially when I'm on my bike, I do it easily and safely by using the oncoming traffic's left lane. There are no excuses for passing someone in their lane. None.

Sure there is. Even the safety video ("Rules for Safe Riding") shown on this site at http://www.passionperformance.ca/motorcycle/articles/6473/ shows two motorcycles passing each other within one lane. The whole idea of motorcycles is to be able to squeeze through the empty spaces in traffic. Riding in single file is for sissies like global warmists and safety nannies. The safety nannies in BC try to make all the mopeds drive in single file, but there's lots of ways around these paralytic pensioners. The best shortcuts for two-wheelers is through school-yards, down bicycle paths, across empty lots, squeezing between all the cars stopped at red lights. When the light turns green, boot it. They'll never catch you. If you come across a sensitive Harley rider on a 4-foot-wide bobber turtling along in the middle of a 10-foot lane, just slide into the bicycle lane a few inches and blast by on the inside. If there's a line of cars turning left and the light is about to go yellow, just tear up the outside (on the right) and squeeze in beside the lead car turning left. Some of this is totally legal! Remember: there's no traffic lanes in intersections, so anything goes. That's what 2-wheeling is all about.

God save us from the old ladies in the Motor Vehicle Branch.

[TimP]

God save us from the old ladies in the Motor Vehicle Branch.

Yeah, well, God save me from riding with you. There's just so much wrong with your approach that I barely know where to begin. Suffice to say I'd be perfectly content to never share your road. You're going to die young, my friend. I sincerely hope you don't take others with you.

Note to Gene Pool Central: Get ready, he's coming.

[yzf1000jon]

I'll bring the chlorine, I hope that was all tongue in cheek especially the part that said some of that is legal because nothing stated actually is.

[JJ Joseph]

Yeah, well, God save me from riding with you. There's just so much wrong with your approach that I barely know where to begin. Suffice to say I'd be perfectly content to never share your road. You're going to die young, my friend. I sincerely hope you don't take others with you.

You don't have to ride with me, so calm down. And if we're sharing a road, I'll be past you before you even see me. I'm not on 2 wheels to "share the road". I ride a small fast m/c because I want to get where I'm going fast. And I want to park it fast. Motorcycles are for fast commuting, not for experiencing nature. Hogs excepted, they're the most efficient transport ever invented. Thanks for worrying about my health, but I've been riding for 51 years, and I've worn out 23 motorcycles & 4 helmets on three continents. Riding 2-wheels fast in traffic has always been safe, but in the last few years since sissies and safety nannies started riding and making up new rules (no passing in the same lane, for example, or no squeezing between cars), the adventure of getting somewhere fast is being totally dumbed-down. Get out of the way: I'm in your right mirror. If you get nervous and wobble, or can't remember which is the brake and which is the clutch, don't worry: I'll be past you before you know what's happening so you can continue experiencing nature in peace & quiet. You won't even see me. That's the whole idea of 2-wheels.

[yzf1000jon]

Most efficient transport ever invented huh, bicycles, sailboats. Anyone else?
Riding for 51 years? Sounds like you're a squidly punk from down at the local Timmies. But I can only judge by what you write so I might be wrong, don't know yet.

[JJ Joseph]

Just a few weeks ago, March 2010, the French Minister of Highways decided to ban lane-splitting. The result was a million bikers plugging up the highways of France, riding single-file like the safety nannies prefer. The bikers totally choked the highways until the minister decided to withdraw the ban on lane-splitting. Now French bikers can once again ride like God wants us to ride, screaming along the white line between stopped cars, or riding three abreast on the wide open road. That's what motorcycling is about! Motorcycles aren't just skinny cars. The safety nannies need to go back inspecting baby cribs or checking kiddie booster seats. Here's a YouTube of a million French bikers bringing the country to a halt - the line goes clear over the horizon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTi5PyWeraA&feature=player_embedded#

[Rocking Couple]

I too have been riding for many years. Not as many as you, but well into the 40+ years. And I too make my way around cars and obstacles. And I ain't no irresponsible squid. But with the advent of cell phones on everyone's person, and recent articles in which the cops are encouraging motorists (that'd be the frustrated ones sitting in traffic due to a no lane-splitting law in this head-up-its-ass country we live in...who couldn't determine who is truly a risky road-user or not if their pathetic life depended on it) to call in your plate number, the cops have BRAGGED, in puffed-out-chest-fashion, that "we'll be waiting for you at your driveway to lay the charge on you", then it leaves an astute rider fewer options. Either fall into the sheep line.... or take your chances with having your flip-plate discovered on roadside blitzes.

Our country's drivers (I'm using the term loosely) have such a me-first mindset that even if lane-splitting was ever approved, they would have to also allow roadside beatings/justice upon any driver who purposely opened their door or used their car or truck to squeeze you into a guard rail.

I have had a heavy truck driver try to do that to me. And I managed to get out in time. I have never been so close to a road rage scene in my entire life. I was all I could do to not stop the bike up the road and wait for him to get up to me. It was extremely slow stop and go. As a heavy truck driver myself, I took special exception to his disregard for my life and determining that he, single-handedly, (along with his 1300000 lb rig, it was a set of B trains on 30 wheels, against my measly 600 lb bike on 2) was going to 'police' me and dish out his own irrational punishment to me. I knew how to incapacitate his entire rig from the outside, and then incapacitate is sorry ass when he gets out wondering WTF happened. But do I penalize the rest of the motorists but for the actions of one asshole?

I really think huge lines have been crossed now that our police forces are actually encouraging random other motorists to help them police the actions of those of us on 2 wheels.

Not once have I ever heard that a cop "will be waiting at the driveway to lay a charge" against a cager when a rider had called in reporting that they had tried to kill them with their car.
Double fucking standard if ever there was one. There has always been one within police themselves, but now, unfortunately, its broadening its horizons.

[Yamahuh]

Motorcycles are for fast commuting, not for experiencing nature. Hogs excepted, they're the most efficient transport ever invented.

Interesting - I've never ridden a pig.
Oh, wait a minute, there was that one girl in my first year at Uni....

:D