A better bike shop

[KZDon]

I stopped into NBX Action Sports in Barrie yesterday (Right at Hwy400 at the Dunlop Street exit). They were a sled dealer that picked up a Vespa/Piaggio dealership, I think.

My visit was prompted, however, upon learning that they are also now an Aprilia dealer - I wanted a good look at the 750 Shiver. Interestingly they also sell MotoGuzzis (although I have yet to figure out the attraction of MotoGuzzi, as I understand it is the Italian word for Harley - and Melissa Holbrook Pierson didn't convince me at all).

Unfortunately, they didn't have a Shiver. However, there was a reasonable stock of sleds, scooters (including that three-wheeled Piaggio thing) Aprilias and Guzzis, and some fairly-priced used stock.

I spoke with the owner, who seemed to be a reasonable guy. He let on that there is pretty much one Shiver in Canada that was making the show rounds, and given the interest in the bike, he's hoping for more.

The short story is that I'd go back there. It was a much better experience than I've had at my local Kawi/Yamaha shop, where MSRP is king.

[RickO]

Wow, a dealer only 100km from Toronto.

Things are really improving on the retail scene here.

I guess this was one of the "nearby" dealers that people at the manufacturer's booths at the December bike show were referring to.

[Uwe W.]

Wow, a dealer only 100km from Toronto

Rick, there are at least two Piaggio Group (Aprilia, Moto Guzi and Vespa) dealers in the GTA. Off the top of my head I can also think of Ducati, BMW, Triumph, Kawasaki, KTM, Yamaha, Honda, Harley and Benelli dealers as well. So what's with the sarcasm? :D

[RickO]

Rick, there are at least two Piaggio Group (Aprilia, Moto Guzi and Vespa) dealers in the GTA. Off the top of my head I can also think of Ducati, BMW, Triumph, Kawasaki, KTM, Yamaha, Honda, Harley and Benelli dealers as well. So what's with the sarcasm? :D
Where are the Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki dealers in Toronto, or is everything within a one hour drive now deemed a Toronto "GTA" dealership?

I've been down this road before at the bike shows and on the old forum. Suggesting that someone in Toronto take their bike to Milton, Hamilton or Ajax for service is totally unrealistic. Honda, for one, helped the owner of Cycle World decide to shut down by suggesting that bike sales were going to be through company stores and/or Honda car dealerships in the future. A Honda rep I spoke to at the December bike show told me that these plans were ongoing. This is apparently just bullshit if there is nothing in place for the fast approaching spring season.

We are moving to Paris, Ontario next month and in that little town of 10,000 I will actually be closer to dealerships in Brantford and Hamilton than I am to a dealership in Toronto right now.

I'm aware of the Ducati, Harley and KTM dealerships as well as a Moto Guzzi dealership within a few klicks of where we live now and easily accessible by transit if I had to leave my bike for service. I cannot afford any of those brands. Have the Japanese big 4 given any thought to their existing and potential customers?

Yes, I'm being sarcastic but the fact remains that there are no Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki dealerships in Toronto. Could anyone from any of these companies explain to me what their marketing strategy is for Toronto, or do they even have one (oh, sorry, more sarcasm).

[Malks]

Uwe, you have to admit that the number of motorcycle dealers located within the borders of Toronto is dropping at an astounding rate. I can only think of Snow-City on Kennedy Road in Scarborough as a dealer that sells new Japanese bikes within the bounds of Toronto. It would seem to me that these manufacturers are leaving a very large market without proper coverage. Hopefully they are working to fix this problem.

You are correct that there is a Harley dealer on Front Street and a Ducati shop almost next door over at Bathurst Street. You can also find a BMW at the multi-level superstore at the foot of the Parkway. However, I was not aware that Triumph and Kawasaki had dealers inside Toronto.

If you are looking for a new Honda or Suzuki you can find multi-line dealers in Markham, Brampton, or Newmarket that sell new bikes. There is a KTM dealer in Orangeville that I know of, but that might be a little far for some TO natives.

I can fully understand the sarcasim as it would seem to me that the big four Japanese manufacturers really don't seem to give a damn about Toronto as a bike market. At least that is how it looks to me.

Personally I am not affected because Larry's Small Engines in Orangeville is a Honda dealer and they offer excellent service for my ST. There is a Kawasaki dealer up here as well.

[sportbikecalgary]

Could it be this is their response to the stupid insurance costs that are associated with motorcycles in Canada. Basically a big F-U and off to more receptive markets. If insurance costs are keeping sales down and the number of new motorcyclists entering the scene is dropping 'cause they just can't afford it.... why bother selling in that area? Canada is a piddly little market and if the government continues to allow the continued raping of motorcyclists by insurance companies... no doubt the manufacturers (and their local reps/dealers) are just going to fade away. No big hoopla, no begging the gov for favours... they'll just pick up and leave for better sales territory.

[Uwe W.]

Where are the Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki dealers in Toronto

Honda = Snow City
Kawasaki = Big Kahuna
Yamaha = Snow City, Woodbridge Yamaha
Suzuki = I didn't claim they were in TO, but I guess either Brampton or Burlington would be the closest.


or is everything within a one hour drive now deemed a Toronto "GTA" dealership?

Considering how congested the roads are in this region, it can take you an hour to go between two locations within Toronto. So even if you have a Toronto based dealership, it's always going to be far away for someone. Let's say Suzuki had a dealership on Front St. and you lived at Weston Rd. and Finch. You wouldn't even think about going downtown would you? Suddenly the Brampton dealer becomes the better alternative.

Toronto is simply too big, and the motorcycle market is simply too small to expect dealerships to be a convenient distance for everyone. My most recent new bike purchase was from a dealer in Burlington, so I actually had to take the GO train to pick-up the bike; trust when I say that your point isn't being lost on me.

I would like to see more dealerships too, but WHO is going to support them, especially in a time when everyone is bragging about the deal they got south of the border? Economics is a big part of this problem. You'll notice most of the downtown core dealers represent higher end models - they have to be because the tax load for businesses in Toronto is staggering. By the way, even the Harley dealer on Front is going to disappear.

As for Honda, I can understand why it's taking so long for bikes to show up in car dealerships. When's the last time you walked into a car dealership and there was empty floorspace? I suspect they don't want bikes that sell for $10k-$15k taking away the space a $30k+ vehicles could be sitting in. Honda has certainly created a problem, and it probably will only get fixed when new dealers open in buildings that were designed to house both products. I also suspect it's been so slow in coming because the numbers don't add up; how many CBR125s do you need to sell to make the same money a loaded Ridgeline pulls in?


We are moving to Paris, Ontario next month and in that little town of 10,000 I will actually be closer to dealerships in Brantford and Hamilton than I am to a dealership in Toronto right now.

Congratulations, it's a beautiful town and somewhat of a motorcycle hotspot. I'll be out there twice in July for bike related events... of course I wish they were being held in Toronto so I wouldn't have to travel so far to get to them. ;)

[Uwe W.]

Uwe, you have to admit that the number of motorcycle dealers located within the borders of Toronto is dropping at an astounding rate. It would seem to me that these manufacturers are leaving a very large market without proper coverage. Hopefully they are working to fix this problem.

I agree several have closed in the last two years. I disagree that Canada, never mind Toronto, is a large market. Don't believe me? How old is your bike? How old is the bike that Rick is riding? Who's buying the new bikes that will help to keep a dealer's doors open? Are they working to fix this? I doubt it, but then again why would they? As the saying goes, "show me the money" first and the manufacturers will be there.


I was not aware that Triumph and Kawasaki had dealers inside Toronto.

The Ducati dealer you mentioned on Front St. is also a Triumph dealer. Big Kahuna sells Kawasaki (pretty sure they're on Steeles near the 400).


There is a KTM dealer in Orangeville that I know of, but that might be a little far for some TO natives.

KTM Toronto is located on Dundas near the 427 (right next door to the old Cycle World location). Lucky for me it's only a 5 minute drive away. :o

I've been to the Honda and Kawi dealers in Orangeville, but didn't have any luck with the KTM one. The address I had was for a industrial unit that was next door to a nasty used mattress place. It didn't look like they were still in business, so I haven't bothered going back since. That was a couple of years ago; if I recall it was south of 9 at the west end of town.

[Uwe W.]

Could it be this is their response to the stupid insurance costs that are associated with motorcycles in Canada.

I'm sure that's a contributing factor, and one of the reasons that the average age of Canadian motorcyclists continues to rise. The cost of buying and insuring a new motorcycle has become prohibitive for someone young. I recall when I bought my first bike that it was a cheap alternative to buying a car. Unfortunately those days are long gone.

[KZDon]

I don't mind being blunt; Cycle World and McBride's were awful places to shop for anything. They were the big multi-line dealers in the city, and the game was their to lose. Whether or not Honda pulled the plug on them, they tanked because they did a crappy job in marketing and sales. The odd and unwelcoming reception one received on entering into those places pervaded their entire businesses.

Interestingly, my more recent visits to Snow City have been vast improvements over my experiences there, say, ten years ago. They are pleasant, and polite, and, wait a minute, welcoming.

In the Barrie and surrounding area, I've found St. Onge, a multi-line dealer, to be quickly on its way to Cycleworld-dom, as is Jack'n'Jills in Midland, being the champions of MSRP. Jack'n'Jills (Yamaha and Kawi) is literally the only game in town except for a KTM dealer no one seems to know about.

Sadly, the multi-product model as I've seen it at Newmarket Suzuki and Barrie Honda is a failure for motorcycles. There is usually one guy in each place who is supposed to know about bike sales, if he's there. The motorcycles in each of those places are shoved off the side, and apparently considered best left there.

Are Inglis Cycle and Hully Gully still multi-line dealers in London? I recall being well treated there, again about ten years ago for my last visits.

[Malks]

Uwe, the Orangeville KTM dealer is now located in a new building on Second Line just north of Highway 9. This is two concessions east of Highway 10 and is near the car dealers. The KTM dealership is part of "Tractor Turf and Trail" and yes, they also sell tractors in there.

Yes Uwe my bike is a '97 and no, I have never bought a new bike in the 30+ years I have been riding. I just cannot justify the cost of a new bike with our restricted riding season. However, without a supply of new bikes coming for those who can justify the cost, there would not be a very good supply of used bikes on the market either.

I would think that a good dealership that offers factory service and parts would make more money in the shop than from the sales floor anyway. At least that is the story that the auto dealers would have you believe.

[Uwe W.]

Thanks for the update. Are you talking near the Mazda dealership? I'll have to check them out next time I'm passing through, which is fairly often. I've always had a hankering for a tractor... and besides, the guy around the corner from me has already sold out of his allotment of 690 Enduros.


Don said: Cycle World and McBride's were awful places to shop for anything. They were the big multi-line dealers in the city, and the game was their to lose. Whether or not Honda pulled the plug on them, they tanked because they did a crappy job in marketing and sales. The odd and unwelcoming reception one received on entering into those places pervaded their entire businesses.


Wow Don, did you ever nail that one on the head. That was about as accurate a description as anyone could hope for. I really hated myself everytime I bought something from either of them. Cycle World East was a different story, but unfortunately they were located at the wrong end of town.

I've always been curious what a mega dealaer like Blackfoot was like to deal with. Any of you Alberta guys have any experience with them?

[Malks]

Uwe, you are correct, Tractor Turf & Trail is located next door to the Mazda dealer on Second Line. I am not sure what models they have in stock, but here is the link to their site where you can get their contact info.

http://www.tractorturftrail.com/recreation.htm

I agree with the comment regarding Cycle World West. Last year a friend of mine bought one of the CBR125s and kept getting the story that the riding gear had not arrived. I think he finally got some of it before they shut down.

[Rocking Couple]

Parker Bros (KTM dealer, did someone call it KTM Toronto now?) beside the old Cycle World West on Dundas is amazing. While I've never purchased a bike from them yet, I do have personal experience with their store and staff. Dave and the gang there will, and do, bust a gut to make their customers happy and satisfied. My opinion seems to be shared among many other bikers I've talked with and read about. They call you when they say they will, they even email you when they say they will. If I owned a KTM, and relied on an outside source for maintenance and repairs, I'd drive over 5 hours round trip to make them my bike dealer.

TO real estate and taxes are huge overhead that has chased many a shop out of the city. Like someone has mentioned, an hour to get almost anywhere in GTA is nothing. Unfortunately :(

[metalredneck]

i'm pretty sure hully and/or gully is the only real game in london. there's a hon/zuk dealer in owen sound as well. but that's quite a drive from the centre of the known universe. is there any need for anything but h/d in the big smoke?:eek:

[sportbikecalgary]

I've always been curious what a mega dealaer like Blackfoot was like to deal with. Any of you Alberta guys have any experience with them?

I'll leap at that one... It's a customer service crapshoot ranging from non-existant to if-I-have-to. They know they are the biggest shop and have no problems undercutting the others on anything. So, if you know what you want and are price savy, and have a reasonable idea of where to find it in thestore, Blackfoot is a good place to purchase.

One of the standing jokes my friends and I have is to wander into Blackfoot and see if anyone will approach us offering sales assistance. Sometimes we get approached, but the otehr 95% of the time, we can wander around for 30 - 45 min without having someone come up and start talking to us. Now I can appreciate the non-pushy salesman approach but to not acknowledge a potential customer is an odd way of doing business.

A few years back I was in the market for a new 1000cc sport bike. It was between an RC51, R1 or gixxer1000. I was doing my rounds of the various shops and ended up at Blackfoot as they had all 3 on the showroom floor. I had the RC and R1 pulled out of the stacked like breadslices showroom display and into the pathway directly in front of the salesmanagers office. I crawled all over these 2 bikes for about 30 minutes while salespeople came and went from the salesoffice. Several of them gave me the "what the hell is this guy doing?" But no one spoke up and I kept my mouth shut waiting to see if they'd make the first apporach. They didn't. Now... sure I could have whistled one over and started a conversation, but I expect a salesperson to approach me when I'm lookng to spend money...not me going to them saying "look I have the money come deal with me." In the end.. no one dealt with me.

I was super busy at work when I was purchasing that bike and decided on the RC. I was looking for the bike plus a corbin, a double bubble screen, Heli Bars, and a set of pipes. and looking to spend about $19k out the door. I phoned the sales manager of the 3 honda shops in town and told them I was going to fax them a proposal and they could respond if they wanted. I know it was a bit unusual compared to shoping in person, but certainly something they could deal with. Of the 3 shops I informed and then sent the fax to, only 1 responded.. a mom and pop shop...and they got the sale.

Service is another issue for Blackfoot. If you phone for a tire change expect it to be 2 weeks until you get in. They have a bunch of service bays, but qualified mechanics come and go. Naturally, if you can turn a wrench in Alberta, you're probably working in the oil patch making way more money than what a transient bike shop mechanic will make. My favorite bike mechanic is now working winter months in the oil patch and motorcycle touring all summer. it isn't a tough decision. So they seem to get low to average mechanics. If you watch the local web forums, there's always someone complaining about Blackfoot service.

On a side note, the tire changing biz is so swamped in the summer there's a guy in town that has a 3 ton truck set up for tire changes. He'll come to your home or office and change rubber for less than any shop in town. He's very busy as well.. but talk about convenient.

So... being a mega-store may mean a good change-over of stock with over 3500 units/year (unit = bike, generator, sled, atv, etc) heading out the door, they're not worried about getting every sale. They get quite a few! But as far as gaining or maintaining clients... nope. They may get the sale, but the service is probably going somewhere else.

Does that sound like how Cycle World and McBride's were?
(Sorry about the length...)

[Rocking Couple]

Yup!



says my message is too short....what's up with that anyway? I've always wondered. All the forums do it.

sometimes the reply is simply yup or ok

I wonder if i had of added a few exclamations if it would have taken..

[Smiley]

Are Inglis Cycle and Hully Gully still multi-line dealers in London? I recall being well treated there, again about ten years ago for my last visits.

Inglis are alive and well. Triumph, Ducati, Kaw, Honda, Suzuki. They treat a customer well. They are at least 2nd generation same family owners. Long may they run.

Hully Gully are still in action, but they opened a Suzuki car dealership next door and try to sell bikes (Suzuki). weird.
At H-G main store the sales staff are aggressive. They jump you at the door and hang around like last nights burrito fart. Their lowball pricing on new bikes broke another dealership (Lightning) this past year.

Don't know about service, I do my own. Swervin' has good things to say about Inglis service.

There is also Mid-city Honda and Wolf BMW, and a H-D tractor dealership Snotty's I mean Rocky's

[RickO]

How old is your bike? How old is the bike that Rick is riding? Who's buying the new bikes that will help to keep a dealer's doors open?
I resent the implication that I am not supporting my local dealer because I have not bought a new bike.

I bought my last two bikes USED from DEALERS (the long defunct Doug's Cycle in Grimsby) and Cycle City in Burlington. I wanted to buy from an established dealer that would back their product and be able to supply me with parts and service LOCALLY.

I keep detailed records of all the money spent. You do not own a bike for 12 years and put 100,000 km on it without spending money on parts and service. On my current bike, for example, I have spent over $1300 on chains and sprockets, over $2000 on tires, have replaced the battery three times, and spend almost $100 every time I change the oil, filters and plugs using OEM parts and premium oil. So far that is over the original purchase price of the bike and I haven't added things I pay for at the dealer because I can't do them myself, such as carb synch and valve shimming.

If you have worked at a car dealership, you know that dealers make more profit on used vehicles than new, as each used vehicle is unique (condition, mileage, etc.) and the cost to the dealer is based on trade-in allowance plus the work required to put it on the lot. When I sold Toyota's, there was $1200 total between full MRSP and dealer invoice on a Tercel. The cars often sold for $600 gross profit in the hopes of getting service business. A used car might only owe us $2500 on trade-in allowance, take nothing to safety and sell for $7500. Hence, I don't buy your THEORY that all the profit is in new bikes.

If companies like Honda and Suzuki want to sell their bikes alongside their cars, then shit or get off the pot. BMW seems to be having some amount of success with this model. There are already one brand shops in smaller markets such as the far north that sell everything Honda from generators, to outboards, to cars.

My belief is that the Canadian divisions of the Japanese big 4 are being run by people that don't care about bikes and would rather see them just go away. How else do you explain away the lack of direction and dithering? Bikes are selling successfully in markets much smaller than Canada.

I interviewed for a marketing job at Suzuki over 12 years ago before eventually going to work as a product manager for a big US car and truck parts manufacturer. The head of marketing at Suzuki at the time used to work for a cosmetics firm. Bikes weren't even on his radar. Most of the people I met in the office wouldn't know which way to face when they sat on a bike.

My wife and I have been shopping for a starter bike for her. She wants a new bike that has a warranty and can be serviced locally. We have passed on both Honda and Suzuki because of the lack of dealers. The Buell Blast looks like the bike that will win out with her because it is sold and backed by a local dealer.

[Rocking Couple]

Unfortunately, it sounds like yet another female is going to be lulled into a false sense of security provided by one of the least competent motorcycles available for purchase in Canada. And look for reasoning that doesn't extend beyond light weight, height challenged inseams and a reasonably wide-spread dealer network. I urge her to spend at least a minimum of 45 minutes on a demo ride (on the highway) so that the many weaknesses of the Blast can become more apparent to her. Brain rattling vibration and a surprising/discouraging lack of umph (for a 500cc) should surface in time for her to reconsider her options and short list. Make sure she trys to do at least 100kph and see how amazingly little it has left in it at all at that speed. These should include an SV650 naked, ZZR250 (best pick of this entire bunch and would run circles around the Blast in every regard, even insurance costs) an EX500 or GS500 and maybe others.
As for being close to the dealer, she wouldn't need to be with the Kawi's and the Zooks, but will want to be if she must have that Blast. Ironic really, it's anything but a blast. Showroom sit-ons, with "this feels best" attitudes, are best left right there; in the showroom. Unless that's the only place she plans to ride her bike.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of buying a 'Lada' or a 'Yugo', just because they were the closest dealer to me. For your sake Rick (and naturally your wife's) I hope she reconsiders.

[RickO]

For your sake Rick (and naturally your wife's) I hope she reconsiders.
I must admit that she hasn't actually ridden any of the bikes we've looked at. Like most new riders these days, she learned on a cruiser (250 Virago) and has been sold on the low seat thing.

She is short of arm and inseam and found the baby Ninja (my personal choice) too much of a stretch to the bars. The CBR125 was also a candidate but will no doubt be highway challenged also. The Blast has a very neutral riding position with the pegs under the seat instead of way out front or tucked back.

I'd like to try a few of these things out this summer before we actually buy something. If the Blast is as anemic and shaky as you describe, it may be back to square one.

[Sidecar Bob]

Wow. When we moved out of Scarberia there were 5 or 6 places that sold new Japanese bikes and a handful that specialized in new without going west of Victoria Park.

I guess we're pretty lucky here in Kawartha Lakes - we have 2 decent dealers in Lindsay.

Lindsay Cycle on the east side of town sells Honda bikes, outboard motors, ATVs &c, Polaris ATVs, Sea-Doos and Lehman trikes. From what I can gather they sell a lot of GoldWings & Shadows and did pretty well with Valkyries when they could get them.

HB Cycle sells Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Ski-Doo, KTM (ATVs - I'm not sure about the bikes), and travel trailers.

The people at both of them are friendly and helpful. Although I have never bought a new bike (& am not likely to anytime soon) I have bought 2 used Hondas from HB (the running joke is that Phil is trying to make me a better customer for Lindsay Cycle). The parts guys at both know me by name, even though I don't really buy much from them - maybe a couple of hundred $ per year including tires and oil filters. Some years I spend more at Peterborough Cycle Salvage.

I guess that's one more reason I wouldn't want to move back to the city....

[Dirtybill]

Hey KZDon!! Watch what you say about Guzzis!!!!!!!!:p

Re the Dealer thing: I bought my Husqvarna at a little what I like to call, old time shop. Yes, the owner forgets to order stuff at times, the place does get cluttered, there's 2 dogs wandering around the shop and often on Saturday afternoon a few customers pick up some beer and bench race but the main point is that he provides excellent service, rides and races the brand he sells and will often give his customers a deal on stuff. He and his shop had a lot to do with me buying a Husky instead of a KTM/Yamaha etc.

[KZDon]

Yup, it's just you and Melissa Pierson, DB. I suspect Guzzis are an acquired taste - probably not a bad one though.

Name that bike shop. Little guys doing good work deserve a mention.

[Dirtybill]

Ya, I have to agree. I think anyone's first ride on a Guzzi would decide it for them right there. My opinion is that it's an either love it or hate it after the first ride.

Anyway...

http://www.5thgear.ca/

The owner is on the quad in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EU5sdsQ1Pk