Forum decorum

[RickO]

I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum lately: a trend toward personal attacks instead of discussion. This forum is not alone in this. I participate in a number of online forums -- some have a focus on technology, some are current affairs forums like TVO's "My Agenda" forum for their "The Agenda" television program. All online forums seem to suffer from the same problems, and I must commend Uwe for a very even-handed approach to forum moderation -- a duty for which the rules are still being written.

The personal or "Ad hominem" attack is a nasty debating tactic (those familiar with courtroom drama will recognize it as "discrediting the witness") described in the following excerpt from the website for the Nizkor Project:

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Example of Ad hominem

Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."

To read more on the subject, follow this Wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Discussion or even "argumentation" is supposed to be fun -- an intellectual exercise that opens one up to different points of view. When it descends into name-calling and personal insults even I (yes, I like to think I am "above all that") have become exasperated enough to tell someone to fuck off.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, whether that opinion is right or wrong (translation: whether you agree or disagree). Holding a particular opinion or belief does not make someone an idiot, even if millions of idiots share the same belief. That is a reduction in logic.

Hopefully this forum will remain a place where ideas can be discussed freely without a fear of attack or a need for censorship.

[Swervin]

Okay

I will start.

That Swervin is a beer swillin, salsa eating, depraved no good for nothing, village plundering low life good for nothing except riding and putting fear of terror into the eyes of unborn 3 headed calves, who should be shot, pissed on and quarterd.
But otherwise not a bad guy.:p

[Hayabusa]

Okay

I will start.

That Swervin is a beer swillin, salsa eating, depraved no good for nothing, village plundering low life good for nothing except riding and putting fear of terror into the eyes of unborn 3 headed calves, who should be shot, pissed on and quarterd.
But otherwise not a bad guy.:p


I agree 110%...:D

[Hayabusa]

RickO;

Actually, unless there were some really bad exchanges that I missed altogether (I did miss whatever caused RC...I believe it was...to leave) this forum is one of the most polite I've ever seen.

I left the Cycle World forums because it got so bad. There was one member there who snapped or something and would go off on everyone else and the mods didn't address it. Many people left.

ST-N has had it's moments, to the point where they deleted the politics threads altogether - some people had zero interest in motorcycling and just wanted to fight over G.W. and the like.

This forum is like Sunday school in comparison!

[Paddy]

I'm with 'busa. Even though I don't visit ANY other forums I'm not sure this place is going sour. I think it might be that it's normally so congenial and quaint that any hotheadedness stands out. Frankly whenever someone loses their cool most other posters step up and slap them down, sometimes to the point they don't come back, until they come back.
Fair comment is welcomed here like anywhere else, and a little salty language and wry humour seems not only to be tolerated but encouraged by the more literary types.
I for one love a good contraversy and good insults as long as it's kept within the long-understood bounds of decency that have existed here since day one.
Now will someone please take the piss out of me for writing such a milquetoast response to a touchy subject! And the hell with you!;)

ps, I'll be on holiday until Sept.2. Flame away.

[YellowDuck]

Please add my supporting vote to the request for civility.

One of my very favourite sites ever - The Ducati Index - eventually had to shut down its forum altogether, after several threats of lawsuits from people who had felt slighted. Probably no merit to the suits, but when you get sued you still have to deal with it legally. The guy running the site finally just got sick of it and pulled the plug.

It was a sad, sad day.

BTW, I am a "forum supporter" now, so you all get to see how handsome I am.

:)

[Plain Peter P.]

and Hayabusa is right; Paddy is right, and probably the Swerv is right too.

About the only time anyone ever learns something of value about what they'd like to know, is when animosity and rancour are absent. I know this because I am careful to be a very peaceful guy. Yes, eh?

Hayabus's reasoning is full of shit: his comparison is like showing two BMWs against half a dozen Harleys. These look good because those look bad.

Paddy writes nice, but we don't hear from him often enough. 'Congenial' and 'quaint' are words which I am going to borrow.

I never read one of Swervin's crudities without that I bust out laughing in the middle of it. This guy is your definitive 'one-off'.

I was going to embark on a short history of the existence of this forum (together with some of the personalities who inhabit it) as a next writing project. But, having thought about the idea for a while, it now seems a total no-brainer. Too much potential for resentment lurks within, and I'd be battling my way out of tight corners endlessly. Abort, abort! I am looking for some good ideas, though. The continuing survival of my brain depends on it.

From here on in, let all of our arguments be ad rem. (Do like Rick said, look it up and get yer education.)

[Schmittenhymer]

There was one guy on the old forum that was truely a dick. I hope he's gone. If you think some posters are getting nasty now, just wait until winter!

[Touring]

I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum lately: a trend toward personal attacks instead of discussion. This forum is not alone in this.

Taking part in some German speaking Euro forums, the thing that surprised me the most was the vast difference in attitudes.

The same can be said behind the wheel of a car. Vast differences in courtesy and politeness.

Too much red meat in our diets, I guess.

[metalredneck]

I am against ANY censorship. Say what ya wanna say, and lemme hear it.

Oh, and that guy from the old forum that was such a dick was prolly me, so y'all take a lick.

Ya heard me.
Send me a private message for my lawyer's address, just remember, the statute of limitations on libelous slander is two years. He ( or she ) who hesitates is lost.

Oh, I forgot the smileys. :D:):rolleyes: >:/

[Malks]

I think this forum is pretty tame and more civilized than the others I visit. I tend to stay away from the off topic areas on the other forums because they usually degrade into personal attacks and that is not why I use the forums.

I have only seen a couple of minor flare-ups here, and they did not seem that bad to me. Uwe is a good moderator and is on top of these issues before they blow up into bigger problems.

[Plain Peter P.]

why'ncha say whatcha mean? Quit beating about the bush, my very good friend; have another beer and take the weight off yer feet. We're used to hearing only good stuff from you...

Uwe is off to Indianapolis this week. You can use all the fucks that you want. I echo what Malks said though: he does an acrobatic job of scrubbing the decks.

[KZDon]

Ohmigod! What a circle jerk you wankers!

How's that? Is that good? Did I wind up everyone?














wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeee

[Touring]

I tend to stay away from the off topic areas on the other forums because they usually degrade into personal attacks and that is not why I use the forums.

What is interesting, Malks, are the reasons behind the personal attacks.

I'm on numerous forums and over the years narrowed it down to a few:


People just disagree on things that really are a matter of opinion. Silver bikes are nicer than black ones. :rolleyes:

The aggressor tries to intimidate the newbie on the forum for various reasons, trying to get them to leave and never come back. What I've experienced is if you know too much and you outshine them, say from a technical standpoint (or whatever), they're no longer the forum expert and their ego gets bruised (same thing in clubs). Or if a forum you belong to also puts out a club magazine that advertizes motorcycle tours, and just about all tours written up by the members in that club magazine happen to be from that tour company and you then show them an option for doing the same tour self-guided for less than half the cost, that upsets the BoDs and the advertizer...so they get someone to pick a fight in an effort to get you thrown off the site.

Clicques tend to form on forums, and its so interesting how one buddy will back the other buddy in fear of becoming unpopular if they don't toe the party line. Not much different from street gangs...and we all know why they come about...insecurity issues.

If you correct a poster because they are plain wrong, they get offended because they look silly to everyone. Not anyone's fault but the poster's...they should have checked their facts.

And then there is that age-old sad human quality...envy. So they hate you for various reasons.

And in the end, you tend to grow a thick skin and not even lose any sleep over it.

[metalredneck]

Does actually do his job well, which is why I missed the last batch of fireworks. Sucks being nosy & uninformed. All in all this is a fairly civilized board, and I try to aim my shots at the behaviour, not the individual.

Unless they're a real douche-nozzle, like...

On the lighter side, the Leafs are now tied for 1st in their division. 'Til the puck drops.

Oh,yeah...smileys...>:/:p;)

[Plain Peter P.]

of your assertions.

>The aggressor tries to intimidate the newbie on the forum for various reasons, trying to get them to leave and never come back.<

You may be correct, if that accords with your actual observations. But not on this forum. Newbies here have customarily had some sort of a deliberately expressed welcome, and those have been genuine. Can it be claimed that this forum is different from most others? Yes, it can. Any sensitive power of perception will discern that it is.

>What I've experienced is if you know too much and you outshine them, say from a technical standpoint (or whatever), they're no longer the forum expert and their ego gets bruised<

Your experience is respected, but here that conclusion JUST IS NOT TRUE. Here there are resident experts who have risen (or precipitated) to that status on merit. No one here would be foolish enough to dispute legal matters with a trained and practicing lawyer (there is one); to argue law enforcenment issues with on-the-job cops (there are two); no one would have the gall to second-guess Sidecar Bob Kingsmill on putting a rig together, WTF would they be thinking? These - and others with their strengths - are the "forum experts". Lang may their lumms reek...

>Clicques tend to form on forums<

This may appear to be so. Keep in mind though that many of these guys have eaten sandwiches together, have corresponded through regular emails on matters more important and far removed from bikes, have sent each other Christmas gifts; they remember the names of each others' wives and when the kids were born... Is that a clicque? Or is that a friendship?

> one buddy will back the other buddy in fear of becoming unpopular if they don't toe the party line. Not much different from street gangs...and we all know why they come about...insecurity issues<

Total bullshit! Just not so. It is generally known, for instance, that Uwe and I are friends. (We have not yet met.) I taught him how to write, and then he taught me how to write with some degree of finnesse. There is about thirty years difference in our ages. But here is a case of mutual admiration, together with some understandable envy, I dare say. Plus respect. You trivialise all that with ... "insecurity issues".

>If you correct a poster because they are plain wrong, they get offended because they look silly to everyone.<

What is this emphasis on right and wrong? We are all wrong, until we learn. And then we have supportable hypothesis. Which we have to modify when we learn more and become less wrong. Are you right? All of the time? When did you learn all this with maybe half of your life lived already?

>anyone's fault ...they should have checked their facts<

Fault sounds like something from a pulpit in an evangelical church. Fault is a toothless old dog dragging around looking for someplace to die. Merit is the pup which will dig its grave. A bas le defaut, mais vive le merite.

>And then there is that age-old sad human quality...envy. So they hate you for various reasons.<

You have support here. Watch out for hate though. Like rust, hate never sleeps and is just as corrosive.

>And in the end,<

And in the end, the love you make is equal to the love you take... (I stole that from John Lennon. What a great line!)

[Swervin]

OH Yeah

WELL I'AM RUBBER AND YOUR GLUE, WHAT EVER YOU SAY BOUNCES OFF ME STICKS TO YOU.

I'am loving the hell out of this.:D

[Ivor biggin]

WELL I'AM RUBBER AND YOUR GLUE, WHAT EVER YOU SAY BOUNCES OFF ME STICKS TO YOU.

And here`s me thinking that police intelligence was just a myth.
I.B.

[Touring]

You may be correct, if that accords with your actual observations.

I take part in many forums and I've noticed a lot while on them over the years. As an added bonus to discussing motorcycles and touring, I find the personalities that one comes across in discussions very interesting. So the reasons for my comments.

I've been in one motorcycle club and as an instructor at a flying club, so I've come across clicques and attitudes. I just don't have the energy or time to waste on those in my old age anymore.



What is this emphasis on right and wrong?

Some people can be fragile. I could get into a detailed example but I'll keep it short and just say: I've come across info that someone was offering that was plain incorrect and would have cost the person they were advising some good bucks. You speak up to help out and in the same time, you end up stepping on the toes of the forum poster.

Now don't you start one of those "how wide are your chicken strips" or "how many miles do you ride in a day" threads, cause I'll just :rolleyes: Those that can, don't need to discuss it. :)

[Smiley]

Wow, are you philosophers done with the navel gazing yet?

I looked but all I saw was belly button lint.

Mmmmm, lint!

[TimP]

Wow, a Shrink would have a field day with this thread! Do we have any of those on board yet?

And to think we share a common bond....

[metalredneck]

I suppose freelance gynecologist does not qualify, huh?
>:/

[Plain Peter P.]

now come the bumpkins slightly embarrassed at having been in the presence of an IDEA. Verbal constipation grips the bowels, and the implication is that 'there is no problem...'

Well, there IS a fuckin problem! In an honest attempt to turn things around, Rick pointed it out at the start. A few other posters bore down to sort the damn thing out. And more or less got somewhere with it. They got across a few opinions and did some listening in a rational way, with the result that there is a slightly better understanding here now. Twenty-some-odd posts just didn't get posted for squat.

The predictable consequence of thinking, "there is no problem: this naval (sic) gazing is a joke" is that you guys will in the future be posting on a forum where Yer mother wears army boots and Ossum! will be typical posts. (Alex says he has seen some like that.) And I, together with some others who like to think instead of grunt shall not want to be here.

This forum is by this time an established institution generally aimed at entertainment and enlightenment. You want it to be a yelling match where no one can hear above the general noise? You can have it...

[YellowDuck]

Personally, I would just like to see someone...anyone...post something interesting to read somewhere on this forum. Something about motorcycles. My goodness, this place is dead. At this point, I'd even settle for some ignorant crap that pissed me off...as long as it was about bikes, or about CC.

What a frickin' yawn.

[Touring]

Personally, I would just like to see someone...anyone...post something interesting to read somewhere on this forum. Something about motorcycles. My goodness, this place is dead.

Thats forums in general. Great posts are few and the balance are mostly small talk, but then, thats a matter of opinion. It depends what interests individuals.

Dead? Well it could stand a shot of caffine.

How many really active posters are here. Not that many from what I can make out.

I spend a lot of time over on forums looking for topics of interest or one where I can contribute as well as at YouTube looking at other people's videos of where I've ridden. It helps me get through to next summer.

Forums are a great excuse for not cutting the lawn. ;)

[Swervin]

Personally, I would just like to see someone...anyone...post something interesting to read somewhere on this forum. Something about motorcycles. My goodness, this place is dead. At this point, I'd even settle for some ignorant crap that pissed me off...as long as it was about bikes, or about CC.

What a frickin' yawn.

I think the forum is nice BUT you want something to piss you off motorcycle related.

Your wife sucks a mean dick while sitting on a Harley Davidson:eek:

[Swervin]

Now I gone and did it, started trouble.:p:p:p:p:p

[Ivor biggin]

Your wife sucks a mean dick while sitting on a Harley Davidson:

O.k., your telling me that this idiot drives around with a loaded gun on his hip.
I.B.

[Swervin]

O.k., your telling me that this idiot drives around with a loaded gun on his hip.
I.B.

yep I do and I am joking:)
I expect yellow duck to send me a pound salt message but not surprised from ivor,
boy people don't take things in jest

[Swervin]

I am laughing my ass off:D:D:D:D:D

[YellowDuck]

Okay, that is just way over the top. Shame on you. Some people just have no limits.


My wife is Italian, and wouldn't be caught dead on a Harley.

[Swervin]

Okay, that is just way over the top. Shame on you. Some people just have no limits.


My wife is Italian, and wouldn't be caught dead on a Harley.

:D:D:D

[metalredneck]

I bet there's MV guys who said that about Harleys, too.:confused:

[Smiley]

Peter said "now come the bumpkins slightly embarrassed at having been in the presence of an IDEA. Verbal constipation grips the bowels, and the implication is that 'there is no problem...'
Well, there IS a fuckin problem! In an honest attempt to turn things around, Rick pointed it out at the start. "

Hmmm, if I recall correctly, Rick originally started this thread with "I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum lately: a trend toward personal attacks instead of discussion."

I guess "bumpkins" is not personal when it comes on the heels of an attempt to lighten a situation with humour, but no doubt deserving considering that I forgot to bow down in the presence of such exhalted ideas such as are found on this forum.

Way too much drama around here: I thought that this was a motorcycle forum fer crissakes. It seems that you're reading way too much into it Peter.
Lighten up man, life's too short for anger.

On a motorcycle note, I just got back from a short blast. Did the ton, made a lot of noise, showed my irresponsibility for my age. Damn the torpedos and Dalton McCunty too. Fuck him.

Ahhh, that feels better. I highly recommend it. Go for a ride, break the law.

Smile (your irresponsible arsehole)

[Smiley]

[Smile (your irresponsible arsehole)[/QUOTE]

Jeevus Crisis, now I can't even sign my name correctly.

That should have read "Smiley"

The "irresponsible arsehole" stands as written. But you knew that already.

[Hayabusa]

Peter said "now come the bumpkins slightly embarrassed at having been in the presence of an IDEA. Verbal constipation grips the bowels, and the implication is that 'there is no problem...'
Well, there IS a fuckin problem! In an honest attempt to turn things around, Rick pointed it out at the start. "

Hmmm, if I recall correctly, Rick originally started this thread with "I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum lately: a trend toward personal attacks instead of discussion."

I guess "bumpkins" is not personal when it comes on the heels of an attempt to lighten a situation with humour, but no doubt deserving considering that I forgot to bow down in the presence of such exhalted ideas such as are found on this forum.

Way too much drama around here: I thought that this was a motorcycle forum fer crissakes. It seems that you're reading way too much into it Peter.
Lighten up man, life's too short for anger.

On a motorcycle note, I just got back from a short blast. Did the ton, made a lot of noise, showed my irresponsibility for my age. Damn the torpedos and Dalton McCunty too. Fuck him.

Ahhh, that feels better. I highly recommend it. Go for a ride, break the law.

Smile (your irresponsible arsehole)


You're an irresponsible asshole.

How do I subscribe to your newsletter?



:D

[TimP]

now come the bumpkins slightly embarrassed at having been in the presence of an IDEA. Verbal constipation grips the bowels, and the implication is that 'there is no problem...'

Well, there IS a fuckin problem! In an honest attempt to turn things around, Rick pointed it out at the start. A few other posters bore down to sort the damn thing out. And more or less got somewhere with it. They got across a few opinions and did some listening in a rational way, with the result that there is a slightly better understanding here now. Twenty-some-odd posts just didn't get posted for squat.

The predictable consequence of thinking, "there is no problem: this naval (sic) gazing is a joke" is that you guys will in the future be posting on a forum where Yer mother wears army boots and Ossum! will be typical posts. (Alex says he has seen some like that.) And I, together with some others who like to think instead of grunt shall not want to be here.

This forum is by this time an established institution generally aimed at entertainment and enlightenment. You want it to be a yelling match where no one can hear above the general noise? You can have it...

...on this one. Rick's original post was meant to decry posts with an ad hominem focus (a position with which I personally agree). However, aside from the irrepressibly goofy (and completely in character, God love him) response from Swervin', and a few responses from others, there were no clearly ad hominem posts until #7, written by you. I won't call it an attack, but I think that if there's been a fight here you could be accused of starting it. So there.

As for discussion with ideas, I'm all for 'em, and I think other posters here are as well. I've repeatedly called for more, but I'm obviously content to read what's here or I wouldn't keep coming back. I'm sure you must feel the same, but none of us has a right to direct (aside from Uwe's well intentioned and productive occasional nudge back in line) others' comments or affect what they choose to say, so if you intend to chastise us for content, I respectfully suggest you blow it out your ear! (If they weren't so facile, this is where all those damn smileys would normally go so you and everyone else would know I'm writing this with great affection, so don't be pissed with me, please).

The fact that an occasional "grunt" is heard is not grounds for your reprimand. Not all posters post well-crafted prose, but I prefer to accept what comes, grammatical (and worse) errors and all because it's so goddam entertaining! Bring on the Grunts!

p.s. I will say, without direct reference to the individual involved - because that would be, you know, and ad hominem attack - that there is one poster here whose comments make me squirm. His posts, elsewhere as here, make me think there's something genuinely knotted in his shorts, and that was the genesis of my shrink comment. But there's no way I'd let that interfere with reading what he has to say, and there's no way I'd ever reject his right to make me squirm in a public forum such as this. Freedom, Baby! Yeah!

[Desert Rat]

Actually, unless there were some really bad exchanges that I missed altogether (I did miss whatever caused RC...I believe it was...to leave) this forum is one of the most polite I've ever seen.

Yeah, I missed it too but I guess it was something I said cause my post was removed although my intent wasn't to rile anyone. I took exception to his sweet-talkin a new user that happened to be a woman (in theory, but who knows since it was a one post deal). Anyway, that's the problem with the internet/forums/email in general. When you write soemthing here you don't get the subtle facial expressions, body language or intonations that will help to express if you point should be a serious one or not. A lot of misinterpretation happens here, and since it's anonymous, people react far more extremely than they would in a face to face conversation.

I don't use a lot of forums, but Id have to say this one is pretty tame, but as Rick said at the beginning, if it's on the increase then now is the time to address it.

[Hayabusa]

Yeah, I missed it too but I guess it was something I said cause my post was removed although my intent wasn't to rile anyone. I took exception to his sweet-talkin a new user that happened to be a woman (in theory, but who knows since it was a one post deal). Anyway, that's the problem with the internet/forums/email in general. When you write soemthing here you don't get the subtle facial expressions, body language or intonations that will help to express if you point should be a serious one or not. A lot of misinterpretation happens here, and since it's anonymous, people react far more extremely than they would in a face to face conversation.

I don't use a lot of forums, but Id have to say this one is pretty tame, but as Rick said at the beginning, if it's on the increase then now is the time to address it.

At some point I inferred that Rocking Couple was actually a couple, (i.e. male and female) that either posted under the same handle or she at least participated in his posts. I could have been way off and I don't recall what was written that implied that to me.

When I read the terminology in RC's post to the 1 time purportedly female newcomer, I assumed it was the female half of the team making these comments - again I could be completely wrong.

All that, over someone who created an account, posted once and never returned (looking more and more like a quasi-spammer).

[Uwe W.]

At some point I inferred that Rocking Couple was actually a couple, (i.e. male and female) that either posted under the same handle or she at least participated in his posts. I could have been way off and I don't recall what was written that implied that to me.

Actually, I think the term rocking couple refers to a force created in some V-twin motors by the way the piston rods are connected to the crankshaft. The end product is vibration, not unlike that felt in this forum by the recent disagreement you mentioned.

[TimP]

Vibrations always generate heat, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends what you do with it. Heat warms us and makes us cozy, activates us and gets us motivated, but occasionally burns if it's not dissipated properly.

With rare exceptions, we "dissipate" well. We're a proper bunch of highly-efficient radiators, we are.

[Hayabusa]

Actually, I think the term rocking couple refers to a force created in some V-twin motors by the way the piston rods are connected to the crankshaft. The end product is vibration, not unlike that felt in this forum by the recent disagreement you mentioned.

Yeah, I got the vibrating V-twin analogy as well, but at one point, in a previous post of his, there was something written that implied (to me at least) that his wife had some input into posts...maybe I'm out to lunch.