Watching a train wreck

[Canada Dan]

As we all know the price of gas is becoming a bit of an issue.

I have a neighbor who is an alcoholic - nice enough guy, but an alcoholic. (I grew up with one in the house so I see the beast for what it is)

Anyway, last Friday I got home from a week on the road with work and after I finished unloading my pick-up he calls me over to see his new "Toy". Standing on the sidewalk at the back of his house is a new KLR650. (He stands about 5'6" and weighs maybe 120lbs which is another problem in itself)

I had seen him walking about 20 minutes earlier as I was coming into town - and as we're looking at his new purchase he tells me he had been walking back to the dealership with their plate when I saw him. The problem is, he's pissed as a billy goat! I mentioned to him that if he was going to be doing any riding he ought to be careful about the drinking - to which he replied "Yeah, I know - but I used to ride lots, I'll be fine"

If he's had a few drinks on the weekend, he'll leave his pick-up at home and walk - I'm not sure though that he always knows when he's had too much.

I have never spoken with him when he didn't smell of booze. He's married with two young sons. He works in Grande Prairie - which is about a 20 minute drive and plans to sell his Z71 Chevrolet to pay for the bike and save money in the long run by commuting on the bike.

I spoke with him on Sunday night again before I left and he'd already dropped it and broken the right side fairing in a big way. In his driveway. (No plates or insurance yet so he hasn't been out on the street)

I know the first thought that pops into your mind is that he'll do a lot less damage to someone else with the KLR650 than the Z71, but man its hard to know what if anything a person can do to stop what I think is coming.

This won't end well.

[metalredneck]

The divot he will leave will be smaller, but he can still cause damage. I worked at a Honda shop in Wetaskiwin, where I saw the aftermath of one of my first-nation customers running his xr650 head-on into a k-car, killing himself and the driver.

On the up-side, you won't have to wait long, as the May 2-4 weekend is a great time to be drunk & stupid, just ask the Po-Po about that. Hopefully it will be a tree or a rig so collateral damage will be minimal.
:mad:

[Uwe W.]

Anyone with an addiction needs help. You seem concerned enough (I would too if he was a neighbour, given the train wreck could end up being on your own street), maybe you could suggest he get treatment? It's a tricky situation, but it's worth a try; you could end up saving a life, even if it's his own.

Good luck.

[KZDon]

Wow. There are so many issues there it's hard to count. He's a neighbour, so if you do anything or don't do anything, there is a risk of a change in the dynamic between you and your neighbour. Usually those changes are for the worse.

If he hops on the bike drunk, I'd expect you to jump in and tell him to park it - which will probably cause a scene. If he makes it out of the driveway, will you call the police? Which will most certainly cause a bigger rift. Do you try a pre-emptive intervention? Sabotage his plug wires?

The stakes for this guy are huge. If he gets caught drinking and driving, at minimum he won't be driving for a year. That may impact on his employability, which will cause problems for his wife and kids, and so on and so on.

I have a young lawyer colleague who is very bright, seems to get the benefit of the doubt from judges because he's so polite and reasonable, and he puts in a best effort every for every client. He has a first child on the way and a mortgage up to his neck. He's also drunk most times I see him. It is so obvious that the court security police officers almost have a pool on the quality of his drunkeness; ie. one bloody mary at breakfast, a couple from the mickey, or a the multiple drink liquid lunch.

Several colleagues and I have started discussing a hard-love intervention. The stakes for this young lawyer are huge - his wife, child, home and career - but so is the potential for problems on an intervention.

Good luck on whatever you do.

[Malks]

If this neighbour is a friend, you really should explain to him how much more important it is to ride only when completely sober. As both KZ and Uwe have noted, this will not be easy and could create tension, however, it could save his life.

Try to explain to him just how much more complex riding a bike is than driving a car / truck. There are all kinds of other things that are necessary when riding, like balance! I am sure he found that out in the driveway when he dropped the new KLR.

Most of us know, or ought to know, not to drive when we have had a little too much liquid refreshment; basically anything over .05 because that still gets you in trouble. I will not even consider going for a ride on my bike after just a single drink because that could be the difference between avoiding a collision, or being involved in one.

[RB1]

Our Ancient Priest (where the hell is he these days anyway?) used to say (preach?) that we are our brothers' keeper. In fact he used to stress it quite vigorously, if I remember.
So taking that tack then I guess we all ought to step in when we see shit like this happening.
How does one start? Try an amiable chat in the driveway while admiring the new bike? Maybe even, ironically, while having a beer. Make lots of comments about the hazards of riding, even when sober. Try and look him straight in the eye and make sure he gets the point. Let him know that you know he's riding drunk. Oh he won't appreciate it, if he does get it. Not one bit.

If the inevitable seems about to happen then stepping in will get ugly. Is it worth it? Probably, yes it is worth it. Could save a life, maybe several. Save his family and their future. Maybe even save your own and those of your family.
If he persists then ring up the local constabulary? Maybe that's the logical next step and it's a big one. That's when things get all "legal like", and you make an enemy for life. It might take a long while and a lot of bad blood over the fence for him to realize that because of you he's still alive to hate you.

You are right. This ain't ending good. It's just what degree of bad are we willing to accept.
Good luck on whatever you decide.
RB

[Rocking Couple]

Hi Dan,
I can sympathize with your predicament. And because you care, that is what it is. As KZ and others have pointed out, the ramifications of an impaired crash, all add up to no good.

To what's been said already, I have only one other suggestion. If you two can get in front of your PC (try for him to be as sober as possible) do you have any pics or links on file that shows the gruesome ravages of a crash? There are many available on the internet. Some show incredible detail. Aside from amazingly painful looking road rash from not having enough (or any) protective gear on, on the other extreme, I have seen ones that show the poor buggers body ripped into numerous pieces. A leg here, an upper torso (only) over there, and a lower body that has been impaled by the end of a wooden guardrail post, that entered where his dick once resided and came out his backside. If you can make him realize that these injuries are so much more likely if he rides a) impaired (and did you not say he always smells of booze?) b) without wearing gear head to toe. But of those two scenarios the greatest lifesaver would be to avoid riding while under the influence. In other words....till he can get a grip on his drinking and abstain totally, he should sell the bike. His gas costs in the car are a pittance compared to what not only could, but almost assuredly, will, happen.

As has been said Dan, good luck.

[Uwe W.]

I just want to point out that alcoholism is an addiction, and trying to change this person’s behaviour through a rational discussion or fear tactics is not likely to have much effect. The man will not be thinking rationally when he drinks and gets on his bike to go for a ride. If there’s any hope of saving him from himself, he will have to get treatment for his addiction. There’s a reason why people like Dan’s neighbour and young lawyers drink, and until those issues are addressed they are destined to continue their path towards self-destruction.

[Canada Dan]

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share thier thoughts on this.

The guy is not really someone I would consider a friend. I'm more concerned about his family and the grief his actions force them to endure.

My hesitation and uncertainty was related to dealing with an alcoholic parent for most of my life. After reading the responses here I've decided to speak with this gentleman and his wife together. All of the neighbors have worked very hard to ignore the obvious with this family - including myself.

I intend to be quite blunt with them regarding his constant drinking as well as expressing my concerns about his safety and the safety of his kids which he will undoubtedly take for a ride.

Whether he takes our discussion to heart is up to him I guess - his wife is an elementary school teacher so I hope she will be receptive to my comments and concerns.

I'll be back home tomorrow night so I'll speak with them at that time.

Thanks again everyone.

Dan

[sportbikecalgary]

It's a tough call with this one.

Scenario 1) There's going to be very little you can do. The guy is a drunk and nothing you do will change it. He has to accept the fact and make the changes himself. In any case, if he doesn't change, get his family into Al-Anon (http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/) so they can prepare for the circumstances of his drinking or his eventual death. This could mean upping the life insurance to one that won't disqualify him for being drunk when he kills himself (hopefully just himself!), taking control of the bank account to make sure all bills are paid, make sure the home, RSP's, etc are jointly owned so there's less legal confusion towards ownership when he kicks off. When he sees hs family living their lives as if he's going to kill himself, something might sink in.

Scenario 2) The riding of the KLR and the fact that he can't drink while riding might envigorate his outlook on life and the booze will take a backseat to riding. Take the guy out for a few multi-hour trail rides and show him the high that comes from adrenaline. He stops or moderates his drinking to when he's not riding and he's better off for it.

Scenario 3) He has a minor crash, breaks a collar bone, has some road rash and offers you the KLR at a discount because "those damn bikes are dangerous" You low-ball him on the bike and get a near new/slightly rashed bike for cheap while your neighbor goes back to his 4x4 with the cooler between the seats.

Having lost a long time riding bud to drinking and driving (not riding) I'm a bit cold hearted on this. Going to the police may seem harsh, but unless they mandate a breathalyzer for his vehicles, nothing is going to change and he'll just go underground with the drinking. But it won't stop. The best bet is to get those around him to accept the fact that he's an alcoholic and they have to take steps to protect themselves from him.

Here's hoping for Scenario 2 :D

[mrspock]

Hmm , i have read this thread an dwas considering whether or not to offer any comment / reply that may b eof help here but I find myself having nothing possitive to add . So , why th ehell then am i osting anything at all here y' all may ask ?

Well , I HAD a freind who , while not personally involved in such activities , DID however have a son who is very much such a person . He went so far as to outright SUPPORT his addictions both drug an dbooze to the point where he deliberatly destroyed the lives of other around him , INCLUDING his freinds so his kid can continue to have his addictive habits .

I may get severly flamed here but I am afraid that i have little sympathy for the person who KNOWS better and ends up doing the wrong thing anyway . Ya ya , I know , y' all gonna say that the dudes an adict and he may be drunk or whatever . HOWEVER , one STARTS OFF with a clear head and with the capacity to know right from wrong ... BEFORE the start to partake of whatever it is they take .. hence , they are FULLY aware at the start of what the outcome / consequences of thier actions will be should they decide to go further . There is PLENTY of information out there on the effects and consequences of one actions should they find themselves in this situation so the notion that they were drunk / stoned , whateve r, simply DOES NOT CUT IT FOR ME . if this dude were run into YOU or one of YOUR familiy members and KILL them , would you easily dismiss this as a simple case of being drunk / stoned ? NO , i would bet not , and , i suspect that you will want to fry his ass but good .

If someone wants to drink / get wasted , great , let them , HOWEVER , when they get behind the wheel / bars of a motor vehilce , they are now in MY OPINION , ARMED WITH A LETHAL WEAPON AND YOU ARE THE NEXT TARGET , VICTIM .


Let me conclude with a quote directly from the first post on this thread where the guy said : " ... to which he replied "Yeah, I know - but I used to ride lots, I'll be fine" ... " Does this sound like a guy who will REALLY give a shit about his or YOUR safety WHEN he goes on the road ? NO , this sounds like a loser who knows exactly what h eis going to be doing and those around him have NO IDEA that that may the LAST LIVING moment they will have on this earth ... thanks to his " to which he replied "Yeah, I know - but I used to ride lots, I'll be fine" attitude .

Sympathy my ass .


spock

flame suite on , fire away

[Ivor biggin]

Scenario 4.
Dan`s neighbor could be just another hard working Canadian family man who likes a few beer around the yard on the weekend. We already know that when this guy has a drink, at weekends, he leaves his truck at home and when Dan saw him coming back from the dealers he was walking. Could it be that Dan, because of his passed experiences with alcoholism, is over reacting.
IB.

[Canada Dan]

Ivor,

Absolutely not over-reacting - he was walking back to the dealership with thier dealer plate after just riding the bike home. He was drunk less than half an hour later when he called me over.

Dan

[John]

This shit is no fun. Of course I intervene into people's lives all the time given my career but try to just be 'me' when I get home in my neighbourhood. When I get home my tolerance level goes waaayyyyy up - that's not only normal but healthy. Anyway, I would advocate the 'mirror test', as I call it. We all have a fairly tight grasp upon the concept of right versus wrong. The questions that people struggle with seem to revolve around what to do about it & when to do it. Fair enough. Right & wrong in most day to day matters is usually a fixed point of reference. What you can live with is usually found in the mirror as you shave, brush your teeth, comb your hair... (presupposes a conscience on your part but given your concerns for your neighbour that is already in evidence)

What I would do (& when I would do it) will likely differ from you. That's okay. But I know what I can live with. If I had your neighbour living alongside of me, he would likely expect that I would intervene in his forays into drunken riding - he would be right. I would go one further & tell him that each & every time that I see him go off on the bike drunk would result in my alerting the local authorities. No back doors with me on something as important as this. He's not likely going to place somebody else into a heckuva lot of jeopardy given the fact that he would be running a bike drunk but he is risking his life. He's also risking the psyche of some unsuspecting motorist that might watch him go under the front end of their vehicle... As Uwe so rightly points out here, this is an addiction & addictions always require some sort of intervention / life change / rock-bottom / no-way-out-gotta-face-the-music sorta thing.

Even if the fellow gets pissed off at you, he will know that you actually care enough to tell him what he knows full-well.

John.

[Ivor biggin]

Don seems to have this guy pegged as an alcoholic and judging from the strength of his feelings he could be right. If he is then he has to follow his convictions and do something about the situation. Having said that I would think long and hard before making this personal. It`s OK for someone with Johns training and experience to deal with anything that might arise if in what started as a friendly conversation became more heated but then he`s a Pro. My advice? Let the Pros deal with it.
IB.

[metalredneck]

This is a no-win scenario. Either natural selection will solve this or you can intervene. Either will be messy to a certain degree.

[TimP]

Having been down this road myself, and having taken part in the Donwoods Institute's awareness program for family members, I can tell you that there's a term used to describe all the friends, neighbours and family who watch the "train wreck" and do nothing, hoping for the best while fearing the worst. We're called "enablers".

We make excuses, foregive, clean up afterwards, and generally make it possible for the behaviour to continue, either out of love or respect or, like Dan, concern that the "relationship" will worsen if we say anything. We enable the drunk to be a drunk, and allow him/her to do whatever damage he/she does without significant consequence. This continues until something happen with a major consequence that can't be ignored, after which we say, "Gee, too bad, somebody should have done something". We feel regret, and we can carry this regret for the rest of our lives. Not exactly a healthy state of affairs, is it?

Bottom line? IMHO, be friendly, be concerned, and stop enabling. Make sure he knows you know he drinks excessively. Tell him pointedly that he wouldn't have cracked up the fairing if he hadn't been drunk. Ask him how much it will cost to fix. Point out how cheap that is compared to a funeral. Tell him not to ride or drive when he's drunk, ever. Call the police if he does. Maybe you could turn it into a positive situation by riding with him and making the point, not too delicately, that you know how important it is to have all your faculties when you operate a physically complex machine.

People you love, or even just care about - like his kids - need your protection. If he gets pissed off, good. That's a consequence he'll just have to learn to deal with. Allowing his drunkenness and the associated risk to everyone around to continue is precisely the train wreck you called it. Talk to him.

[RoadRash]

TimP is right, totally agree with his post above.

It's worse to say and do nothing, what this guy is doing is illegal ( riding drunk ). I know its a sticky situation and you don't want to offend the "neighbour" and feel that anything you say to him will go in one ear and out the other ( which it most likely will ) but at least he will know you don't condone or approve his behaviour, one small step in his possible realization someday of how serious his behaviour is, he can kill himself or others while driving drunk.

Anyways, I can tell you if any of my neighbours ever thought I drove drunk ( which I don't , just using this as an example here ) I am quite sure they would report me to the police every chance they got. My neighbours are elderly retired folks for the most part, and they don't like or put up with crap like this at all...

I think you would be doing him a favour to call in his next "escapade" to the cops, and they will most likely dispatch an officer the next day to have a little "chat" with this drunk. They wont be able to charge him of course as he will be sober by then, but mebbe the "visit" will scare him from riding drunk. He will still drink of course, but hopefully not ride the bike while drunk for fear the cops and neighbours are watching him closely, so he will just sit at home till he sobers up. Dunno, just a thought here... good luck with it! Glad you posted this thread, cuz this is so common it is not funny anymore these days... we all know a "drunk" who does this from time to time it seems... and with the world the way it is today, it is happening more and more methinks.

[Canada Dan]

You have all been a great help with this - I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of your thoughts and words of wisdom.

Today was the day - I was working in the yard and noticed he was geared up and about to fire the bike up.

The conversation which I wouldn't even try to recall and type here, was quite a long one. I used many of the suggestions and ideas I read here from all of you to help make him understand my concerns.

I'm not very good at small talk when I have something on my mind, so he was quite taken aback when I voiced my concerns about his drinking habits. I explained to him that I spent years watching an alcoholic as a youth and as a result, I recognize one when I see one.

I spoke to him about the need for absolute attention and clarity of mind while riding. That he might get away with making a small mistake in a vehicle - he won't on a bike in traffic. I informed him that out of respect and genuine concern for him and his family I would be contacting the police if I suspected he was impaired when he rode or drove from this point on.

I encouraged him to seek help for himself and that his wife and children need help as well. I also asked him to tell his wife of our conversation - I was rather doubtful that he would and was prepared to contact her myself if he didn't - to my surprise, she called me this evening.

He was emotional, but seemed receptive and related to me that while renewing his license recently his doctor had expressed some reservations about signing his medical due to his belief that there was a problem with alcohol. He also said that within the last couple of weeks his wife had expressed concern about the amount he consumed.

Perhaps hearing it from three totally unrelated sources will have some impact.

I'll let you know how it goes from here - it might be awkward, but I can live with awkward.

Thanks again everyone.

Dan.

[Malks]

From your description it sounds like the discussion went well. By his own admission, his doctor and wife have recently brought up the subject of excessive alcohol consumption. This should convince him that you are acting in his best interests and sincerely care about what could happen to his family.

It might be a little awkward, but, if he seeks help, he will thank you in the end.

Now that is a good neighbour!

[KZDon]

You're a brave man Dan. Well done.

[Ivor biggin]

Brave man, good neighbor, both very true Dan and even though you say that you don`t consider this guy to be a friend I don`t think he could have a better one. You know, this might just work out OK
IB.

[RB1]

Well done Danno. You did a good thing today.
I'm off to walk the dog then I'm getting my fear together and I'm going for a ride.
Well done.

[RB1]

And, after my FEAR is together...I'm getting my GEAR together too!

Bye y'all.

[Canada Dan]

Getting your fear together! In the words of the Cable Guy - "I don't care who you are, thats funny shit right there"

A slip, but a good one!

[RoadRash]

Good news Dan!

That was a great outcome, it could have gone much worse for sure ( like he started to argue with you or totally ignore you etc. ). Obviously your talk had quite an impact on him , so much he told his wife. Then his wife even called you and related that others that care about him are also concerned about his drinking too. Sounds like he is about to get the help he needs, now that his "drinking" is out in the open and everybody is very aware of it. I hope he goes to rehab or something like that, but that is the step he will have to take on his own now.

You probably saved his life by saying what you said, my hat is off to you! :)

[Rocking Couple]

Glad to hear it went the way it did Dan. Sounds very positive and the timing couldn't have been better either it seems.

And ya, you probably have saved his life (and maybe more lives, certain his family). I think it is very cool that he responded the way he did, allowed himself to be set-aback, and also that he told his wife and she called you later. That is all damn good.
Really couldn't have asked for a better start to this battle he's got. With friends/neighbours such as yourself, his chances of a win are better than many.

I take it he took the gear back off and didn't continue on his ride after the chat?

[John]

You, sir, are that most elusive of characters, Dan - the Good Man. Well done yourself. Please bear in mind that this fellow could always go out in a blaze of bullshit at any given weak moment - but it would have nothing to do with you. You chose not to enable this fellow any longer. Please God that he now does his part & chooses the long, hard road of recovery. Should he choose that, you will have been an intrinsic part of his success. It's not every day that something like this happens!

John.

[Canada Dan]

Thanks for all the kind words everyone - you're a great group.

Spoke with him again today (about the renovations that are being done on their house) As I was leaving he stuck out his hand looked me right in the eye and said thank you.

Hopefully he is and he will take the steps required to make his way out of the hole he's in - we'll see.

Oh, and the KLR is for sale - cheap he says...

Too big for him - says the suspension is too stiff. Also the bike is too tall and the center of gravity is too high, the wind on the highway blows him around too much. The tires are too aggressive for highway riding. And what is he going to do when winter returns?

He's looking for a small car with good fuel economy.

I mentioned to him again that it doesn't matter if he's driving or riding, I'll be on the phone if I think he's been drinking before he heads out. "Yeah, I know" he said.

Anyway, enough already!

Thanks again guys!

Dan

[metalredneck]

You're a good neighbour, and a decent human being. I'd like to thank you for your courage & care.

[TimP]

Recognizing that the problem exists is a huge step toward recovery. His offer of a handshake took guts, as did your reminder.

Dan, I agree with the other posters. You may have just saved a life.

Good for you, man, good for you.



So, what's he asking for the KLR?