Biggest Threat to the Motorcycle Industry?

[twinsport]

So I know what I feel are the biggest threats to the motorcycle industry in Canada, but what are your thoughts?

[sportbikecalgary]

Ever increasing insurance rates due to rising costs of covering untrained and unskilled riders. Eventually those that love the sport will go elsewhere due to out-of-reach insurance rates.

[Battleax]

So I know what I feel are the biggest threats to the motorcycle industry in Canada, but what are your thoughts?

My thoughts would be, what do you feel are the biggest threats to the motorcycle industry? :confused:

[yzf1000jon]

Seriously slack testing. Watch canada's worst driver and wonder how these people got their license, then realize it's easier to get your bike license. Unskilled riders make headlines, headlines result in more laws and higher insurance, and those never help in increasing accessibility or sales.

[Malks]

I have no idea how younger riders can afford to ride at this point and I am sure it will only get worse. One of the main reasons I started to ride was it was a hell of a lot cheaper than owning and operating a car; it also beat waiting for the bus.

I am not sure about slack rider testing. The current graduated licence and two road tests have made it more difficult than when I got my licence riding a 100 Kawasaki Enduro back in the early 70's at the 401/Keele centre. However, as with anything I am sure it can be improved. I would suggest they revise the drivers' test because there are way more bad drivers than riders!

[metalredneck]

Insurance rates, exponentially increasing numbers of drivers in general, and ever-increaing numbers of drivers who either don't know the rules of the road or don't care. And let's not forget morons with open pipes.:confused:

[yzf1000jon]

I am not sure about slack rider testing. The current graduated licence and two road tests have made it more difficult than when I got my licence riding a 100 Kawasaki Enduro back in the early 70's at the 401/Keele centre

Alberta still has the old system, unless you are a new driver (16 yrs old) as well. You can get your bike license on a scooter, then by a Busa and become a statistic.

[joemwm]

Ever increasing insurance rates due to rising costs of covering untrained and unskilled riders. Eventually those that love the sport will go elsewhere due to out-of-reach insurance rates.


Dosen't everyone start out untrained and unskilled? Even you were at one point. IT is the mindset of pushing it too the limit that causes that problem. What I mean is as skilled rider if you are pushing your limit and something goes wrong that rider might as well be that beginner because the rider has no options left to recover from it. It is that margin of error, that must be there to ride safely. Unskilled or skilled we all make or encounter other's mistakes. It is that "margin" is what keeps a rider form needing too use insurance(hopefully).

[Caper]

A few years ago I would have said higher operating costs and the fact that it's not a hobby that the whole family can enjoy but within the last couple of years the amount of motorcyclists seems like it's doubled in Nova Scotia. So somebody's finding the money and leaving the kids at home!

[YellowDuck]

I agree that insurance rates are the biggest problem, but don't agree that they are rising because of the increasing number of unskilled riders. I think they are rising because the insurance industry is screwing us, with no significant pushback from the provincial governments because motorcyclists just aren't a big enough voting block to matter.

I can accept that the "disability benefits" are the biggest fraction of my insurance. What I can't accept is their calculation that owning two bikes makes me exactly twice the risk as if I own one, and that I therefore need to pay twice the insurance.

Honestly, the reasonable insurance rates are the ONLY thing I miss about living in the US. We are talking, like, 1/5 what I pay here. Insane.

More and more of us are eventually going to just say screw it and become track riders only. I can easily do 5 or 6 track days, tires included, for what I pay for one year's insurance.

[yzf1000jon]

Dosen't everyone start out untrained and unskilled?

That's the point, training before licensing, or proof of ability for bike size/horsepower. You have to prove you can operate the machine before you are allowed to do so. Japan and the UK have different methods to achieve the same end.

[CanaMatt]

Western Australia is pretty cheap too (all private insurance) some insurers like Insure My Ride are specific to motorcycles. I guess there is power in numbers and Canada just doesn't have the numbers. The risks outweigh the benefit for the insurance companies.
I am originally from B.C. so while I complained when I paid the yearly ransom, I was just glad I didn't live in Ontario or Quebec and their dreaded "Black Lists" .

[YellowDuck]

State Farm in Ontario doesn't have a black list. They just go by displacement, and then charge everyone a ridiculous amount.

[Kootenanny]

I am originally from B.C. so while I complained when I paid the yearly ransom, I was just glad I didn't live in Ontario or Quebec and their dreaded "Black Lists" .
Yeah, that's pretty much the way I feel. Oh, and I'm glad I don't live in Alberta, cheaper insurance or not :D

As to what endangers the motorcycle industry, though--I'd have to say it's indifference. When I was young, I wanted a bike so bad, I bought one and kept it at a friend's place so I could hide the purchase from my parents (of course, I eventually brought it home...it's easier to get forgiveness than permission!). Nowadays, though, society has changed, and many young people have different priorities. Many of the more physical pursuits (snowsports, canoeing, hiking, etc) are less popular AFAIK, at least on a per capita basis. Muscle cars are going the way of the dodo, and motorcycles may not be too far behind...look at the average age of motor sports enthusiasts these days.

I do agree with YD about the insurance angle--insurance companies screw riders because they can. Insurance companies are in business to make profit, and that means they'll charge as much as they can get away with, and give out as little as they can get away with...it's the nature of the business. But, it has little to do with relative skill levels--in truth, motorcyclists are on average no worse riders than they ever were, Indeed, I'd suggest the average motorcyclist these days has more and better training than in the past, when most riders were completely untrained (or learned "good habits" like avoiding the front brake from their buddies...).

But, the traffic we ride in today is more dense and more dangerous. Another problem is, back "in the day" most of us started out on smaller, lighter, less powerful bikes because that's what we could afford as teenagers (and even if you had more money, bikes more powerful than the average car were not readily available). Nowadays, I don't know how, but teenagers can afford race replicas with many times the horsepower of the bikes we learned on, and the "mid-life crisis" crowd can afford whatever they want. Powerful or heavy bikes can amplify minor mistakes, making it harder to simply learn from them...

[twinsport]

Lots of great comments here. I was thinking more about the industry itself rather than motorcycling.
Manufacturers that dictate sales volumes and force dealers to deal with unscrupulous finance companies?
Importers who overprice product, forcing people to buy south of the border?
Unscrupulous Dealer principals who never have a customer leaving their store with the feeling that there was any goodwill.

[metalredneck]

Lots of great comments here. I was thinking more about the industry itself rather than motorcycling.
Manufacturers that dictate sales volumes and force dealers to deal with unscrupulous finance companies?
Importers who overprice product, forcing people to buy south of the border?
Unscrupulous Dealer principals who never have a customer leaving their store with the feeling that there was any goodwill.

Once Harley-Douchevinson goes under, things will improve.

[Caper]

Once Harley-Douchevinson goes under, things will improve.
In my personal experience I was never treated better than I was in a HD dealership. I purchased many bikes from three different multi-line dealerships and always went away a bit pi**ed off about how I was treated. As someone who works in the automotive industry and has seen how customers are treated when buying a new vehicle I could never understand how the motorcycle industry couldn't be the same. I always assumed that it was way things were until I purchased my latest bike at HD. When I went into the HD dealership I wasn't a current customer, had never been in there before and rode in on a Yamaha FJR but they treated me like someone who had been a loyal customer for years. Since I purchased the bike two and half years ago my experience has been much of the same. I do my own maintenance so I've been to the parts department a few times and I also purchased new jackets for my wife and I and was always treated very well. Again in my opinion I think the rest of the industry could learn a bit about customer service from HD. This of course was only my personal experience.

[Battleax]

Once Harley-Douchevinson goes under, things will improve.

How exactly will this cause things to "improve"
Harley is the most successful manufacturer precisely because of their philosophy and their treatment of their customers. Harley will always out sell every other manufacturer in the North American market.

Why don't you attempt to explain your comment redneck

[Kanadian Ken]

State Farm in Ontario doesn't have a black list. They just go by displacement, and then charge everyone a ridiculous amount.

Although I don't enjoy paying $80 a month to fully insure my 2002 VFR 800 for all perils- I guess I look at that payment as a small portion of what I'd pay if I fully wad it up and need a new bike - or new body work and repairs.

Until replacement bodywork and a new frame is around $500 installed - I'll gladly keep my insurance plan through State Farm in place.

To your comment then - is $80 a month "ridiculous" ? I'd argue, No. But if others have better rates - i'd love to hear about them - (Sorry for the thread jack.)

[twinsport]

Once Harley-Douchevinson goes under, things will improve.

Oh I forgot one. People who think less of other riders because they ride a different brand or type of bike.
Wave at everyone.

[Battleax]

Oh I forgot one. People who think less of other riders because they ride a different brand or type of bike.
Wave at everyone.

Couldn't agree more. Dissing someone because the parts that make up their motorcycle are shaped differently than the parts that make up your motorcycle. I just don't get it.
I'd say the biggest threat to motorcycling (and thus spilling over to the industry and sales) is the perception of the general public. Loud pipes being the single biggest complaint heard from the non moto public. Ask 90% of non moto people and they will say "Ban them, they are noisy and/or always speeding"

Take the UK for one example. Lane splitting and filtering to the front at stop lights is completely legal and accepted by the driving public. Try that here and you're finished.
UK and Europe, motorcycles good.
Canada, USA, motorcycles bad.

And that is why the industry across the pond is far more robust than here.

[metalredneck]

All this disagreement is killing the industry. We should all just think alike. As long as it's how I think. Right?

[YellowDuck]

Although I don't enjoy paying $80 a month to fully insure my 2002 VFR 800 for all perils- I guess I look at that payment as a small portion of what I'd pay if I fully wad it up and need a new bike - or new body work and repairs.

Until replacement bodywork and a new frame is around $500 installed - I'll gladly keep my insurance plan through State Farm in place.

To your comment then - is $80 a month "ridiculous" ? I'd argue, No. But if others have better rates - i'd love to hear about them - (Sorry for the thread jack.)

Actually, the collision and comprehensive bit is not that expensive on my policy - I actually find that part pretty fair. But it is only a very minor fraction of my policy cost.

Liability is also not that high, which also stands to reason, since it's not terribly common for a motorcyclist to kill or badly injure another motorist.

The vast majority of the policy cost is for "accident benefits". Again, this stands to reason - the biggest risk the company udertakes is the risk of having to look after me to some extent if I crash and badly injure myself - and that part of the coverage is also mandated by the province, as I understand it. So, fine, even considering that I really don't need that coverage at all, since I have excellent health, medical and LTD coverage otherwise. But them's the rules - the province basically has a law in place that makes people pay for that whether they need it or not.

BUT....why is it that I have to pay for accident benefits (as well as everything else), at exactly the same rate (or maybe a 10% discount), on my *second bike*? How am I possibly at 2x the risk of injuring myself by owning two bikes instead of one? There is no possible logic to it - they simply screw us because they can. And the government puts the legislation in place to permit it. Not fair.

Also, the liablity portion also covers my passenger, I believe. How is it then that when they set the rates, no one even wants to know if the vehicle in question has a passenger seat or not? Again, not fair.

Motor vehicle insurance in Ontario is a scam, and it is even more of scam for motorcylces than other types of vehicles, because we have such a small voice, politically.

EDIT: TD is getting pretty aggressive on their motorcycle rates. I can save about 20% by going with them, which I likely will. But still, same story - price out a second bike, get a quote for 2x the price of one bike.

[twinsport]

Just an observation of late. With "Big Box style" shops becoming the norm running with flat rate "technicians" it seems that independents are finding a good market, some actually doing warrantee work that the big box store's technicians cant figure out. With customers wanting quality service where you can actually speak to a "mechanic" rather than some service writer trying to relay your questions to a "technician" and keep you away from the fellow working on your pride and joy. The small shops with "mechanics" may be the future.

[Caper]

twinsport, as someone who's worked in the automotive industry as a mechanic for years you've got accept the way things are done or get off the bus. I've made a fairly good living as a "big box technician" fixing f**k ups that others without the training or knowledge tried to fix in the first place. I spent the first five years of my career working in independent shops but I quickly realized that being trained and paid well on one product is better than knowing and being paid poorly on all products. I don't have to send problem vehicle to the "dealer" to be repaired and I never have to send them elsewhere. If I don't know the proper fix, and I'm not afraid to admit it when I do, I've got the resources to find it. Independent shops are fine for certain services but dealerships have the proper parts, training and knowledge to do the repair. The quicker you realize that the better.

[Battleax]

While twinsport does bring up the concerns of the customer who doesn't know who to really trust, and there certainly are mechanics out there who really don't have a grasp, I agree with Caper in that big dealerships are far better equipped to service modern motorcycles. Not many independent shops will have the expertise to diagnose things like electronic throttle faults or CAN Bus networks, or understand what a trouble code 'really' points to.

A small shop may have a brilliant, natural mechanic, it's unlikely he/she has taken all the Honda or BMW (for example) technical courses, or even have the factory manuals and diagnostic gear.
There are some who will keep a customer very happy for sure, but the big dealerships will always have the upper hand for the high-tech systems.

Many dealerships will let you talk directly to the mechanic to explain an issue with the bike, but if a customer has a complaint I guarantee the service manager will be the only one dealing with that.
Also no mechanic, dealer or independent, will want a customer hanging around the work space while the bike is being worked on. Not that Twinsport was suggesting that.
With a dealership you can be guaranteed that they will have at least one very skilled, very trained mechanic, who may work on your bike, but will certainly be checking the work performed by an apprentice.

[Battleax]

heh, just noticed Twinsports sig "unemployed moto apprentice" . That sucks for sure. The island may be tough, Ontario shops seem to be keeping good apprentices busy, though it's often the classroom parts of the program that causes delays and problems.

[metalredneck]

As a 22+ year mechanic, now service & parts manager, I can say, this is why I ride vintage. I fix my own, hack & mod my own. I hate the term "technician". At 14 as a gas jockey I was a "Petroleum Transfer Technician."

[Kootenanny]

In my personal experience I was never treated better than I was in a HD dealership.
You were obviously not buying a Buell.

Imagine walking into a Dodge dealership wanting to look ata Viper, but having the salesman repeatedly trying to steer you towards a Ram 2500 V10. Both good vehicles, but completely different--despite sharing the same basic engine. This is how I felt when I was looking at a Firebolt, but had the Harley salesman try several times to interest me in a Sportster. Not to mention that I knew far more about the Buell than the salesman did (guess this guy missed the seminars...along with the vast majority of H-D sales staff I've ever met...).

But that aside, I believe that Harley is a positive force for the motorcycle industry as a whole, even though I am uninterested in their products for the most part, and despise their corporate administration for axing Buell in 2009.

[Caper]

Very true. My experience was buying a Harley tourer. Although I did have a long conversation with the salesmen about the new at the time liquid cooled Buell's. He did ride a Buell himself so that may explain this.

[Caper]

As a 22+ year mechanic, now service & parts manager, I can say, this is why I ride vintage. I fix my own, hack & mod my own. I hate the term "technician". At 14 as a gas jockey I was a "Petroleum Transfer Technician."
"Technician" has always been one of my pet peeves. I'm a mechanic. A technician reads x-rays at the hospital and I wouldn't want me reading anyone's x-rays!

[Kootenanny]

Very true. My experience was buying a Harley tourer. Although I did have a long conversation with the salesmen about the new at the time liquid cooled Buell's. He did ride a Buell himself so that may explain this.
OMG, you got one of the few! I'd heard about this phenomenon, but never experienced it myself...and yours was one of the truly rare ones, who actually admitted to riding something with a liquid cooled engine...;)

(That said, on the two occasions my bike was seen by a professional wrench, I took it to a dealer 8 hours away which actually had dedicated Buell mechanics--the same folks who worked on the dealership's sponsored race bikes. This was not the same place I bought the bike...that place is only 6 hours away...)

[CanaMatt]

OK so we beat insurance rates to death. But the question about the Biggest Threat to Motorcycling (in Canada) remains out there.
I believe the topic was discussed in CC at some point (David Booth?) with regards to a sort of apathy towards motorcycles and motorcyclists by the Canadian public. That the Boomers have really over done the whole motorcycling thing in the past 20 years. Not only is the public not really interested anymore but I am concerned the younger generation are turning away, not wanting to follow in their parents "blinged" out footsteps. We who spawned the Long Way Round and American Chopper wannabes.
Someone complained about seeing only cruisers in the dealers these days, well that’s probably because they are still selling when sportbikes are not. They are trying to stay in business, not arbitrarily support all facets of motorcycling. Now couple this to a short riding season, not always ideal roads, high insurance and over regulation and you get several threats to the future of Canadian motorcycling.
It’s going to come down to the manufacturers building and the importers bringing in the kind of bikes the next generation are going to want to ride. I think the boomers are on the way out and the manufacturers know it.
All is not lost and I see a glimmer of hope in articles like “The kids are alright”. There is still some interest there, and I think companies like HD are rising to the challenge. They have to…the 3 wheel trike may be their final offering to those outgoing boomers. (I kinda like the Spyder myself)

[YellowDuck]

Agree with all of the above except the "over-regulation". I actually think we have it pretty light in Canada with respect to regulation of motorcycling - no graduated licensing, and pretty lax enforcement of the noise laws in most places, not to mention laws about modification to emissions equipment. Overall the country is reasonably motorcycle-friendly, compared to some other places.

[Kootenanny]

The biggest threat to the motorcycling industry may be the same as for the automotive industry...the days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

Internal combustion engines and motorcycles have been around for about the same length of time, maybe a bit over 110 years. I doubt they'll be at all common in another 110 years, and possibly gone well before that. I don't know what will replace them, electric probably (or some kind of motive power none of us have heard of as yet). But really, I think we're living in the waning years of a "golden age" of internal combustion engines. 200 years ago, no boy lusted after motorcycles...200 years from now, they will be little more than museum relics. So enjoy 'em while you can, nothing lasts forever.

[yzf1000jon]

So enjoy 'em while you can, nothing lasts forever.

But man it's been a helluva ride so far!
:cool:

[CanaMatt]

YellowDuck, sorry should have been more specific on the regs thing.
I had heard that in Canada, our governing body for importations (Transport Canada?) requires specific testing to Canadian Standards. As such many manufacturers decide not to export some models to Canada based on the extra cost vs. little gain. If we were to standardize our testing with that of the States then could we not leverage their buying power and get an even greater variety of machines?I may be way off base, but it's what I had heard.
You're spot on that in other areas our rules are a tad lacking. Case in point, my little brother bought a 'Custom Chopper" type bike off a company in Alberta, the thing was a death trap, but completely legal and certified "U-Bilt". Then you refer to my note above we don't allow importation of some really nice European brands as they have chosen not to seek the proper Canadian testing.
Arrrggghhh!