Why is CC kissing up to HD??? [Archive] - Cycle Canada - Forum

JSyes

06-14-2010, 08:23 PM

So we have CC writing a really interesting article on the new "Forty-eight" from HD. To wit:

"...because the Forty-Eight is so gruesomely uncomfortable that after 50 kilometres you’ve long ago ceased to care about what might be gaining on you from the rear."

HD took the ancient "Sportster" and changed the front tire, removed most of the suspension travel to make it "cool" and gave it a "cool" paint job. It's slow, painful and useless. If a Japanese, British or Italian company made such a piece of crap, it would be correctly excoriated by any responsible journalist. CC was polite enough to give HD credit: "we’re supportive of Harley’s reinvestment in the Sportster lineup." but isn't it time to put a fork in it? Harley Davidson gave up on making motorcycles years ago: All they make now is loud, slow and boring butt jewelry.

Please let HD die in peace. We've reached a point where a little tiny third world motorcycle company named "Royal Enfield" in India is making a motorcycle where there is a waiting list, and HD is so messed up they are shopping around for someone to buy them. See: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/06/14/royal-enfield-classic-waiting-list/

LET HARLEY DIE! then Polaris will have a better chance to make something NEW instead of the same old crap from 1935 HD have been peddling to idiots since Easy Rider.

Believe it or not, this is NOT a troll! I've ridden HDs and I understand the attraction: They are just as interesting as a Model T or a '32 Ford: It's just that the HD is such a pathetic joke compared to a truly modern motorcycle. The idea that HD can make a "new motorcycle" from a 1968 spare parts bin and a can of Krylon is an insult to the intelligence of a frog let alone a human being.

Battleax

06-14-2010, 10:10 PM

Jeez, it's just a machine. What piece of crap do you ride?

Kootenanny

06-15-2010, 12:13 AM

Harley Davidson gave up on making motorcycles years ago: All they make now is loud, slow and boring butt jewelry.
Actually, Harley only gave up on making motorcycles last year--December, 2009, is when Buell was finally shuttered. Now, H-D can die as far as I'm concerned (and they can take Kieth Wandell with 'em).

YellowDuck

06-15-2010, 05:16 AM

Wow, helluva first post JSyes!

TimP

06-15-2010, 07:48 AM

Back at the turn of the century (this one, not the last one. Even HD is too young for that) somebody high up in HD noticed that they had long waiting lists, and decided to do something about it. Plans to triple production from approx. 80,000 per year to 240,000 or so were drawn up and executed. The pent-up demand for their product was satisfied, the waiting lists disappeared and now you can buy a Harley, new or used, heavily discounted. The primary motivation has become moving them out the door to make room for more coming off the line. Supply and demand.

Combine that with the mass-unemployment consequences of the current economic disaster to HD's middle-class target audience and you've got a mess. HD have shed Buell, are shedding workers and will shed volume and market share in their rush to adjust to market realities. They'll shrink as far and as fast as possible until they re-acquire balance. Also supply and demand.

So long as there is a market for "loud, slow and boring butt jewelry" they will continue to make a product to suit. They sell to a market that likes that kind of stuff. So be it. I hope they continue to make their buyers happy, even though I'm not one of them. I hope other manufacturers continue to make the bikes that I like. I hope Royal Enfield learn from HD's experience and don't fall into the same trap. Better to wait for six months than never take delivery because the over-extended manufacturer died.

Long live Harley Davidson.

Neil Graham

06-15-2010, 11:21 AM

...as a topic to provoke it's better fodder than religion or politics combined. What would we do without them? If you haven't seen it already, go see the short film Derreck Roemer made on the homepage about the making of the H-D 48 cover...and then report back here with your complaints...

Regards, Neil Graham

ps: I do love the word "excoriated." Lovely choice of language.

stan wagenaar

06-15-2010, 01:33 PM

I am not a big fan of big-twin Harleys, but the 883/1200 Sportsters are some of the most beautiful motorcycles ever made. And I know that the 883 versions may seem a little underpowered, but they have enough, and they are plenty torquey. Harley just needs to make a true all-round version with better suspension, higher seat and roomier ergonomics. Not all of us need the latest tech and features to have fun on a bike. I may not like Harley business tactics, but I love Sportsters!

Malks

06-15-2010, 06:28 PM

Here is the link to the YouTube video (http://www.passionperformance.ca/motorcycle/multimedia/videos/hd/345) of the photo shoot. Love that helmet Uwe! Sorry, I don't know how to embed the video in the post.

yzf1000jon

06-15-2010, 07:42 PM

I may not like Harley business tactics, but I love Sportsters!

If you took the badge off the tank, it's just a basic, solid, (kinda) slow, motor-cycle. Nothing wrong with that. Not my cup of tea, but the assless chaps crowd kinda miss the point too.:rolleyes:

yzf1000jon

06-15-2010, 07:48 PM

Hahaha, Uwe looks scared of the roller girls, actually, I would be too.

dman01

06-15-2010, 08:50 PM

Here is the link to the YouTube video of the photo shoot. Love that helmet Uwe! Sorry, I don't know how to embed the video in the post.

Malks,

You're a forum supporter so why not be a Cycle Canada website supporter as well? The forum after all is a part of our website, no? To watch the aforementioned video, as Neil mentioned, one only has to go to the homepage, the link for which is at the top of this page. Or, if you prefer, click on the videos link just to the left of the forum link. And there's no need to embed any of our videos in a post, as they're just a short click away. I do though encourage you to embed them in other forums or websites.

I've edited the link you provided accordingly.

Regards,

Derreck Roemer - web editor

TimP

06-15-2010, 10:12 PM

Dear Neil, Derreck And Malks,

I want to complain. You need to know that those of us uber-affluent enough to have become Forum Supporters are also well equipped with the latest and greatest of electronic toys. Too bad they don't work with Flash. My buddy Steve Jobs says there are other, better formats such as HTML5 that play just fine on iPhones, iPads and such, and passé formats like the Flash all your videos are in need to be upgraded. Please get on it, OK?

I'm lying here in bed all tucked in relaxing with my friends here on the forum. Don't fuck it up by making me lug a goddam PC to bed with me. My wife is suspicious enough as it is.

dman01

06-15-2010, 11:31 PM

Too bad they don't work with Flash. My buddy Steve Jobs says there are other, better formats such as HTML5 that play just fine on iPhones, iPads and such, and passé formats like the Flash all your videos are in need to be upgraded. Please get on it, OK?

Sorry Tim didn't realize you were all so state of the art. Point taken though.

I fear I've inadvertently highjacked this thread, so let's get back to weighing in on the Harley 48, the article about it, or its accompanying iPhone incompatible video, shall we?

Derreck Roemer - web editor

TimP

06-16-2010, 07:46 AM

Thanks Derreck,

Well, I've watched the video and thanks for that. You guys know how to show a girl a good time, that's for sure. I'll bet they were exhausted.

This is an even better application of the gold helmet than your Guzzi piece. I'd like to know if I can have your permission to rip a still from the video to use as wallpaper. I've narrowed the selection down to the brief flash of the group of dejected women whose less flamboyant suits likely caused them to be culled from the group or the shot of Uwe sitting on the bench. The look on his face is priceless!

(Uwe: Were you worrying about another nudie request from Neil or just relieved the photo shoot was a circle? Either way you didn't have to turn around.)

KZDon

06-16-2010, 03:58 PM

That video is great. By the pictures in CC I thought it was Uwe getting all excited. But clearly it was Neil living out his fantasies. Who cares if the Harley was a POS, or if the shoot was done on with a Kymco scooter with that kind of cinematic genius going on. As for the soundtrack, though, wasn't Bach's Toccata in D Minor available?

Caper

06-26-2010, 02:45 PM

As a current Harley owner and someone who's own and driven all makes and models for the last twenty two years I don't understand why people hate things that other people own. I purchased my bike with my money and the reason I never called anyone to ask what they thought is because I never cared what they thought. It's the same way I purchased all my other bikes, cars, houses and everything else I own for that matter. It never bothered me what anyone else was riding because I assumed that it was what they wanted to ride. I play a Fender Telecaster through a Deluxe Reverb amp if there's any Gidson players out there that need anything else to hate on!

KZDon

06-27-2010, 09:04 PM

Sure, but what colour is the Tele?

The anti-Harley feelings arise in three areas as near as I can tell. In no particular order, they are the rolling slogan of the tits and tats, I'm a bluecollarredneckbeerdrinkingpickuptruckdrivingStu rgis American crowd, which, um, I don't know, just aren't poster folks for reasonableness and progress; it is a motorcycle company largely stuck in the past in the way of technology and led by a "style" department, that charges waaay too much for its products; and as my two-year old pointed out (completely unprompted - "look - pirates!") what seems to be a large majority of Harley owners have the bike as a fashion statement.

Now, I know a number of motorcyclists who ride Harley Davidsons in my neck of the woods. There is usually an exception to support any rule, and I'd gamble that you are one of the exceptions, or you probably wouldn't be here. Instead, you'd be over at the Biker Mommas and Tats website ... and you'd probably have a black Les Paul.

Rocking Couple

06-28-2010, 11:42 AM

they are the rolling slogan of the tits and tats, I'm a bluecollarredneckbeerdrinkingpickuptruckdrivingStu rgis American crowd,

which, um, I don't know, just aren't poster folks for reasonableness and progress; it is a motorcycle company largely stuck in the past in the way of technology and led by a "style" department, that charges waaay too much for its products; and as my two-year old pointed out (completely unprompted - "look - pirates!") what seems to be a large majority of Harley owners have the bike as a fashion statement.

That is just so damn yesterday .....and weak, Don.

And with the 2nd bold you managed to even out-stereotype the first one! Talk about clumping. :rolleyes:
It wouldn't be so bad except that I know you weren't kidding.

And with the influence of a parent(s?) that is openly that judgmental, it's no wonder your 2 year old's spontaneous perception was revealed. I know that you put your kids and family ahead of yourself at all costs, but even at her young age, she can pick up on our reaction to the comments they blurt out. I suspect that you found it amusing and likely indicated as much, which she would interpret as you being pleased with her remark so it becomes perpetuated.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, ok, but I suspect your feelings of superiority over the stereo-typing you mentioned has more to do with overly loud pipes and idiotic needless throttle blurping, disturbing your peaceful household (and probably even by some recent leather bandana wearing, tat covered, illegitimate community-supporting, Harley straddling, defendants you've been prosecuting) than with the general populace of Harley owners.
Admittedly, even those ones do themselves no favours at times, when they get a bit lost trying to find their niche and think that it can be done with only an influx of enough dollars, but at least the majority of them are law-abiding, tax-paying owners, and really don't deserve the continual ne'er-do-well type labeling.

I too have been hard on the HD bike at times, (its reputation) but I try to not clump all of its owners quite the way you did. Are some of them total idiots? Yes, absolutely, but so are many GSXR types.

I think Caper is just getting tired of the stereo-typing, and frankly so are many others.

Besides...just what is so wrong with liking beer, owning a p/u truck and attending a rally or meet?

YellowDuck

06-28-2010, 11:59 AM

And with the influence of a parent(s?) that is openly that judgmental, it's no wonder your 2 year old's spontaneous perception was revealed. I know that you put your kids and family ahead of yourself at all costs, but even at her young age, she can pick up on our reaction to the comments they blurt out. I suspect that you found it amusing and likely indicated as much, which she would interpret as you being pleased with her remark so it becomes perpetuated.

WTF? The kid saw some village people types on Harleys and said "look, Pirates!". How the heck is that evidence that the parent is "openly judgmental"???

And of course dad laughed. How could you not? It would have been funny as hell.

If you read Don's post more carefully, you will see that he explicilty did not group all Harley owners together, as you accuse. Indeed, he even left plenty of room for the possibility that Caper does not fit the general description.

I thought it was a good post!

Rocking Couple

06-28-2010, 12:08 PM

WTF? The kid saw some village people types on Harleys and said "look, Pirates!". How the heck is that evidence that the parent is "openly judgmental"???

And of course dad laughed. How could you not? It would have been funny as hell.

If you read Don's post more carefully, you will see that he explicilty did not group all Harley owners together, as you accuse. Indeed, he even left plenty of room for the possibility that Caper does not fit the general description.

I thought it was a good post!

Yes, but with fairness being first and foremost it would have been better placed at the beginning at least.

It takes all kinds, but I don't find it all that funny. I would have pointed out (in an effort to not perpetuate stereo-typing) the difference between an unscrupulous pirate and a few Harley riders with tats and wearing black leather. Some of them are really good heads.

YD, are you denying that his (unconfirmed) reaction to her comment could not perpetuate negativity towards them?

Damn, I don't know, perhaps I could have chosen a better post to make issue with, but just because we might want to slam a brand, doesn't mean we should include the person who owns one. I'm pretty sure it was the redneck comment that stuck in my crow. My bride to be is a southerner and she is the sweetest thing you could imagine. And she sure doesn't fall into the category of ones perceived to not be "poster folks for reasonableness and progress", either.

YellowDuck

06-28-2010, 08:35 PM

I would have pointed out (in an effort to not perpetuate stereo-typing) the difference between an unscrupulous pirate and a few Harley riders with tats and wearing black leather.

You would have pointed that out to a 2-year-old, would you?

Seriously though, I do get your point. I have a few friends who ride Harleys, and actually not one of them fits the one-percenter-wannabe stereotype, and indeed I would hate to think that any of them would ever be subjected to knee-jerk prejudice because of the bike they rode.

Congratulations on your impending marriage! I lived in "the South" (Georgia) for five years, and met lots of stereotypical Bud Lite-swilling NASCAR fans, but plenty of intelligent, interesting progressive people as well. I knew a few southern Harley riders who one might have called "rednecks" for their fashion choices and certain other aspects of their lifestyles (dedication to bass fishing and deer hunting), but who were surprisingly socially progressive and very cool people (i.e., not racists, not homophobic, just not assholes of any description). And still others who just liked guns and pickup trucks and were waiting for "the South to Rise Again". So yeah, it is a spectrum, and we stereotype to our detriment.

Rocking Couple

07-01-2010, 12:00 PM

Thanks, YD.

I admit I am not well versed in the degree or level of what a 2 yr old's understanding may be. But I do know that children pick up on more than what we give them credit for and at an earlier age than many might imagine. I say start high and work your way back simplistically as needed. Only then have you hedged your guidance bet at reaching its highest potential.

When a seemingly gifted child is born unto a mother who read (educated) to it in the womb is proof of this. A child's reaction or display of comfort/recognition can also be later witnessed when it recognizes a voice that it heard while still in the womb. So I say, shoot high.

Teaching a child respect at as early an age as you can, is the single most rewarding lesson it (and you) will ever have. From a selfish aspect (if you like) you get to reap your efforts long down the road.

Caper

07-01-2010, 01:41 PM

TimP

07-01-2010, 04:46 PM

Your signature says it all, Caper, and more power to you for it.

For what it's worth I had a friend years ago who was a totally died-in-the-wool BMW guy. He had an M3 and a 328xi that he drove on alternate weeks and an R1100RT to ride on the side. Nothing else came close, until his knee went bad and he couldn't ride the RT anymore. He tried a Cruiser but that was worse. Finally, after decrying HD as outdated Technology he found comfort on a Road King. His conversion was complete and now HD can do no wrong. Rationalization? Of course. Justifiable? Absolutely.

Morale of the story: ride what you like. What other people think doesn't matter.

But I have to ask. Are you a Pirate, too?

KZDon

07-01-2010, 11:13 PM

Thanks, YD.

When a seemingly gifted child is born unto a mother who read (educated) to it in the womb is proof of this. A child's reaction or display of comfort/recognition can also be later witnessed when it recognizes a voice that it heard while still in the womb. So I say, shoot high.

Teaching a child respect at as early an age as you can, is the single most rewarding lesson it (and you) will ever have. From a selfish aspect (if you like) you get to reap your efforts long down the road.

Her mother is working on her doctorate in Canadian political policy as it relates to families and her father is a human rights lawyer. We walk the walk and talk the talk. This two year old's pirate comment was spontaneous and unprompted, and I don't think I've ever voiced that thought myself.

KZDon

07-01-2010, 11:21 PM

So lets see other riders don't like "Harley types" because they look down on other riders. So other riders look down on them. Even a "Harley type" knows the meaning of irony! Do a bit of research, like I did, before you judge a bike or product. After years of riding sport then sport touring bikes I wanted a tourer. It was to be my first new off the showroom floor bike. I spent a few months reading anything I could find on all models and tested most. The Harley had four piston Brembo brakes, a well mapped fuel injection system and what I thought after riding all the bikes the best feeling suspension and handling of the lot. Now remember coming from sport bikes all the tourers felt big and heavy but the Harley felt better than the rest. It came standard with security, CD/CB radio, cruise control and has tonnes of storage at a price that was as good and in some cases better(Goldwing) than the others. I didn't purchase the Harley because it was a Harley, I purchased it because for my money it was the best bike for me. I'm coming up on two years of ownership and I never regretted it once and for those wondering I'm not part of a bike club, I've never attended a HOG meeting and I ride with anyone on anything. I don't attend because of any other reason than I'm not into that stuff and I have no hard feelings to the people that are.

Perhaps my issue with the "Harley Crowd" comes from the group-ride / poker-run mentality - all dressed the same with too much money in chrome and not enough in helmets.

I was thinking that today while riding through Muskoka, alone. I don't usually slide in to ride "with" another motorcycle if I don't know that rider, with the sometimes exception of a lone Harley tourer rider. For some reason that combination (if the bike isn't too shiny and loud-piped) engenders some trust in me that the rider will be reasonable and predictable.

I formed up on one today on Highway 69 northwest of Gravenhurst and enjoyed the limited comradeship all the way to Bala.

Caper

07-02-2010, 07:59 PM

Like you I generally ride with people I know and try and stay clear of people I don't have a bit of experience riding with. A few years back in my sport bike days I rode with a group of about three to six people depending on the day. We, I'm embarrassed to say, rode like idiots. Way too fast all the time. One time I broke my own rule by riding with someone I wasn't familiar with who was a friend of a couple of the other guys. At about 200kms on HWY 101 running through the Annapolis Valley he quickly veered across the road and almost took us both out. It would have been my fault as much as his because we were both riding like fools but I knew none of the others would have done that. I pulled off at the next exit and headed home and honestly traded my CBR1100xx on a FJR1300 the next week. I had a few close calls over the years, usually because I was riding too damn fast, but almost being taken out by someone else scared me straight. The last seven years since have been my most enjoyable riding. It's nice to slow down and smell the roses as they say! Man, am I getting old!

Kootenanny

07-03-2010, 12:52 AM

Perhaps my issue with the "Harley Crowd" comes from the group-ride / poker-run mentality...
My issue with the "Harley Crowd" comes from the "group ride = excuse to drink" mentality. I know not all Harley riders are like this, but...well, enough are to colour them all in my perception.

Specifically, some years ago I participated in a local "Toy Run." I'd never done anything like that before (nor since). I was one of the very few riders there not on a cruiser. At the meeting place, before the ride even started, there were organizers offering me beer tickets--to save time at the end of the ride, I was told. I declined.

The ride went about as expected, until lunch, anyway. Slow! It was fun to stop in the first town (Nelson) and check out all the bikes. But when we got to the lunch stop, a group of riders decided to forego the lunch provided, and instead spent the entire stop inside the pub. Anyway, on we went, but now there were riders dropping out on occasion; you could see them, parking at various homes just off the highway, having a quick beer before rejoining.

By the third stop, I decided to keep out of harm's way, and headed down the hill ahead of the group. I pulled off to watch the group go past--I selected a sharp downhill corner, and I got an eyeful! Lots of skidded rear tires, etc.--and they weren't all tipsy.

I did rejoin the tail of the parade, keeping well back, and followed to the community center where we'd started out that morning. By the time I arrived, the beer garden--put on by the ride organizers--was in full swing. Since I'm a prude and don't drink when I'm riding, I left rather quickly. I was disillusioned and disappointed. This is supposed to make the local riders look good to the general public? That they're all drinking at the community center rather than a bar? Oh, well.

BTW, that night one of the riders died on his way home after leaving the beer garden. Ran wide on a corner and head-on into an oncoming car...

Postscript: I've since met and spoken with one of the organizing board, and when I told her this story (in response to her asking why I don't participate), she told me that alcohol comes up at every organizing meeting. They don't provide the beer garden as part of the event any more, but the concern is that if they completely ban alcohol, they will lose too much of their attendance. Oh, well.

Oh, and one last related item. I was recently talking to a Harley owner who's done a few HOG-organized rides, and he tells me that alcohol is strictly forbidden during these events. I'm very glad to hear that, and impressed...now, if they could influence the local Toy Run organizers, who knows, I might even participate again (or not...).

dodger

08-02-2010, 10:52 PM

Interesting discussion. But to get back to the o.p., I'd like to know why HD couldn't re-do the Sporty to at least get close to the Ducati aircooled engined bikes weight-wise. Then I'd really get interested. As long as the good looks remain, of course!

KZDon

08-03-2010, 09:54 PM

Probably because Willie G Davidson says so. Cruiser shape and size is what Harley has been selling and what its target market seems to buy. When Harley built a sport bike (Buell) it was a failure commercially. Harley's core audience wasn't interested, and Harley feared or chose not to market to a different crowd.

JJ Joseph

08-04-2010, 12:33 AM

If CC has to write about v-twins, can we at least hear about something interesting, like maybe diesel Harleys?
http://www.dieselbike.net

Dave James

08-06-2010, 10:50 AM

While never a fan, I would miss HD and all the colour it brings to the sport in the wake of any (unlikely) demise.
I would also miss the ever-present Harley rider "Scowl"...as Max Burns pointed out years back! ;)

KZDon

08-08-2010, 02:23 PM

Ah, yes, the scowl. The "my Harley Davidson brand boxer shorts are riding up and this is what my face looks like when that happens" scowl.

Clearly it's not just CC that appears to spend an inordinate amount of ink on HD - all of the North American motorcycle magazines do. I've just put down the latest Cycle World with their review of the latest iteration of the 883 Sportster. The review gleams brighter than Harley chrome just before a toy ride. The bike is a gem, a clear movement up the evolutionary ladder, with better controls, better suspension, a better seat, and other magical tweaks and twiddles. Clearly it's the best motorcycle ever produced...until the last two or three short paragraphs in which all the downsides and qualifiers are laid out. It still has lousy cornering clearance, is slow, overweight and handles like a fat cow...but, they say, it's the best motorcycle ever produced if you're prepared to live with that sort of thing - or, and this is really telling, you don't know any better.

The real question I have is why so much attention is lavished on a company selling an average product marketted (marketed?) as a lifestyle, by magazines who otherwise focus on the pinnacles of the genre.

Kootenanny

08-08-2010, 11:10 PM

The real question I have is why so much attention is lavished on a company selling an average product marketted (marketed?) as a lifestyle, by magazines who otherwise focus on the pinnacles of the genre.
Well, to the truly faithful, a Harley is the pinnacle of the genre.

The reason so much attention is lavished on H-D is that a lot of people ride (or at least own) Harleys. They are undeniably popular, as much as many of us shake our heads over it, and so there is definitely an interest.

Plus, somehow I think all those full-page ads probably generate some income for the magazines...